Better and Worse Aspects of the Reform

[Eastern Promise]

Good

More smiling
Less Eucharistic adoration
More guitars
Less formality
More Protestant influence
Less 'Roman' stuff
More chattiness
Less mantillas
More swaying
Less birettas
More elements of pop culture
Less dogmaticism
More percussion
Less Latin
More electric stuff like overhead projectors and keyboards
Less intellectualism


Bad

Oh, I don't know. Life is pretty good now having won all these things. Oh well, I suppose there are no women priests yet, and it can be a bit boring sometimes, come to think of it.

[Calum Cille]

I found it very useful for presbyter to raise the subject of the singing in certain masses in the extraordinary form: it allowed me to compare the state of affairs in the ordinary form. I certainly think it appropriate at this juncture to discuss specific reforms (whether applied, not applied or exceeded) and the meaning and worth of them in your own part of the world at least, with participants raising the various advantages and disadvantages of them.

I thought it better to start a new thread for this reply.

I wonder if you regret it now, nazard! What was an outlining of topics has turned into an poll. It's easy to engage in a poll asking, "do you like this, do you like that." My own preference would be to dissect specific reforms for what makes them good or bad in our opinion, rather than dissecting the reform generally, just as we discussed the silence of the congregation in the very interesting video clip that presbyter referred us to.

[nazard]

I wonder if you regret it now, nazard!

Not at all. The first step has to be to get a list of topics, then we can discuss a few. It would probably be a good idea to start new threads if any one looks contentious. I will answer a few points contributors have made and see where that takes us.

[nazard]

Good
The clear distinction between the word and sacrament

I agree, its good, but not much of a gain.

The emphasis on the word

I'm not sure that there is an actual emphasis, but there is more of the word now. I very much approve of reading it facing the people, reading it to the wall or to God was pointless: the wall is too stupid to understand and God knows it already.

The less sacrificial nature of the "offertory" prayers

That I think is a disaster. Many of the faithful are now much less aware of the sacrificial nature of the mass. The reference to "which earth has given" smacks of new age paganism. Mercifully, it is a mistranslation and we won't have it for much longer.

The demise of much terrible and unworthy music and dreadful renderings of same

The demise of music is grossly exaggerated. To kill a piece of music you have to destroy every single copy. A lot of old music is still in use. My own feeling is that it is probably heard more often now, because there was very little music in english catholic churches before the late sixties. At the moment there is a certain kudos attached to performing old music by its enthusiasts, and I think the standard of performance has gone up.

Vernacular

This is a mixed blessing. It has given rise to a whole industry of incorrect and ugly translation, from which we will suffer for some more years yet. An advantage for me of Latin is that it is an aid to concentration. I just do not have the latin vocabulary to think about my day to day problems. The use of Latin locks my brain in to the mass.

Eucharist = giving thanks

That always has been true. Consult a greek dictionary, even a modern one will do.

Lay ministers

A mixed blessing. I like lay readers and cantors, especially as a total inability to sing seems to be a prerequisite for ordination. On the other hand, I am not convinced about lay ministers of the eucharist. Perhaps you should start a new thread and try to convince me.

Less bobbing and weaving and "wiggling elbow syndrome" (if you are old enough, you will recognise it.

Yes, I recognise it. There is one sentence in the canon where the priest makes multiple (four from memory) signs of the cross over the chalice and patten. It looks like a punkah wallah on acid.

Opening the scriptures

Yes - the fundamental idea is good. I am not so sure about the exact choice of readings, but that can be optimised in time. It is interesting that the extended reading scheme was, as far as I can remember, actually called for by the council.

The opportunity given for young instrumentalists to make an important and valued contribution where it really matters

Are you really sure that has changed? Instrumental music for mass has been around for centuries. The age of the players has never been specified, and singing has traditionally been done by young boys. I approve of getting girls involved as well.

Bad
Carte blanche sometimes taken when not on offer
The dismally unchristian attitudes adopted by some critics.

I hope you don't include me in this one!

A reluctance to expect certain standards of behaviour/dress when at Mass

A reluctance I share. I really don't care if people come to mass naked. Am I right in thinking that the only rules actually in scripture are that priests must wear linen breeches and an ephod (whatever that is) and that men must uncover their heads and women cover theirs?

The loss of worship outside Mass

I don't think that has anything to do with the reform. People just can't be bothered.

[alan29]

Thank you for the courteous reply. I won't go through one at a time.
Just one repost ...... I think the old offertory prayers jumped the gun in concentrating on sacrifice. I much prefer the new ones, especially as they are based on the Passover blessings, which like the offertory came before the sacrifice.
It might well be that young people were involved in the music in parishes up and down the country, but my memory from several places was of Tozer et al being rended by people who were well beyond the first flush of youth and were perhaps not so far from their second childhood.
That makes two.
Opening the scriptures ...... it used to be said of Catholics that they didn't know their Bible. well we now have most of it read and explained to us in a regular cycle. As an aside, my wife went to ann african founded church on sunday, as the guest of a friend. It was a big day, because a preacher came from London. The only bit of scripture the congregation heard was the single verse from Isaiah that he based his 30 minute sermon in. And thats a "bible-believing" church. Not strictly relevant, I know, but interesting none-the-less.
and that made three.

[Calum Cille]

Good
The less sacrificial nature of the "offertory" prayers

That I think is a disaster. Many of the faithful are now much less aware of the sacrificial nature of the mass. The reference to "which earth has given" smacks of new age paganism. Mercifully, it is a mistranslation and we won't have it for much longer.

I don't think it a disaster as a sacrificial offering is, rather obviously, sacrificial. You cannot make a sacrificial offering without the concept of sacrifice, it stands to reason. If you take things up to an altar of sacrifice, what are you expecting to be done with them? If the people don't get that, well ... so much for education.

What is really not stated in the offertory prayers (and never has been) is the following: "In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. the lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering."

"In bread we bring you, Lord" is a superb lyric but there is more to be said than just being 'poor', 'selfish', 'failing', 'spoiling', 'missing chances' and so forth. My own offertory hymns are strongly sacrificial in nature.

Here, your children
Meet, your pilgrim
People built in
A living offering
All our efforts
Thoughts, exertions
Work and pleasure
Are present for you

It is important to recognise that it is not only our labour and sufferings (ie, what we undergo) which are offered but also the fruits of that and the things that bring us relief (ie, what we enjoy), the 'cup of blessing'. The catechism is so right to focus on the old phrases 'sacrifice of thanksgiving' and 'sacrifice of praise'. Joyful thanks and praise are very much part of what is being offered.

[nazard]

I will try to reply to your post, although I am never sure if you are serious. Thank you anyway for your cheerfulness.

Good

More smiling

I think that this depends more on the congregation than on the form of mass. I know some smiley EF congregations and some grim OF ones. Its not actually in the rubrics.

Less Eucharistic adoration

This is unchanged between the two forms: each species is held up for a few seconds at the priest's discretion after the consecration.

More guitars

If only there were more guitarists, roughly the same number as there are guitars. Try playing "Cancion de Cuna" by Bartolomé Calatayud at Christmas midnight mass: it makes a good communion voluntary. I guarantee it goes down a treat.

Less formality

That depends more on the priest and the congregation too.

More Protestant influence

You will have fun convincing catholics that Protestant influence is a good thing. Pray for and with protestants, but be careful about being influenced by them. That said, I'm a great fan of the late Oliver Cromwell (Sidney Sussex 1616).

Less 'Roman' stuff

The missal still comes from Rome, ie 100% roman.

More chattiness

For the congregation, that depends more on the congregation than on the form of mass. For the priest, at the OF, some remind me of Dave Allen's anagram of Michael Foot. I wish they would just shut up and get on with it. I have come to offer sacrifice to the omnipotent and everlasting God, and to celebrate our salvation and His resurrection, not to listen to some rambling oaf.

Less mantillas

That could be a good thing. There were a lot of grotty mantillas around. On the other hand, my Great Aunt Kath had a lovely one she embroidered herself when she was a teenager. The world could do with more things of beauty.

More swaying

I associate that with over indulgence in ethanol. The Holy Spirit is to be preferred.

Less birettas

That can hardly be a good thing. The biretta adds a touch of humour to the scene. Do you know of a more impractical garment? Anyway, Dave Allen would have been lost without his.

More elements of pop culture

Many would consider that an oxymoron.

Less dogmaticism

not that you would notice: the novus ordo brought its own dogmaticism with it. The communion queue is a procession if you accompany it with music, usw.

More percussion

If only the guitarists would stay in time with it. Why has music since 1960 gone percussion mad? It does add a certain monotonous drone to it, a bit like riding in a train. Percussion is a bit like guitars, or for that matter organs: the supply of equipment far outstrips the supply of capable operators.

Less Latin

I have been in love with Latin ever since someone painted on the outside of my school, in letters six feet high "Veni, vidi, ivi." It just wouldn't have been funny in English (or Welsh, or Gaelic).

More electric stuff like overhead projectors and keyboards

After nigh on forty years in power stations I think I've had enough of electricity. Mind you, I do like a good electric action on an organ, and an electric blower is a real boon for practice. You can get someone to pump the bellows for mass, but for practice...

Less intellectualism

I'm by no means certain that that is true. Read interlectualism. Even if it were true, why would you consider it a bad thing. I believe that the EF is the product of evolution of centuries, and the OF an interlectual exercise.

Bad

Oh, I don't know. Life is pretty good now having won all these things. Oh well, I suppose there are no women priests yet, and it can be a bit boring sometimes, come to think of it.

I have been an avid fan of BBC Choral Evensong for many years and have these observations on women clurgy (clurgywomen?):

Some speak clearly.
Some mumble.

Some can sing in tune.
Some can't pitch a single note.

Some ramble on.
Some can put together a good, structured, meaningful sermon.

How is this different from the men?

[NorthernTenor]

I was browsing this thread from my geekfone with an inclination to disappointment, then noticed that 8 of us were browsing and took some comfort from that (as in comfortable words ... musicus & members of the Ordinariat will understand!)

[alan29]

I was browsing this thread from my geekfone with an inclination to disappointment, then noticed that 8 of us were browsing and took some comfort from that (as in comfortable words ... musicus & members of the Ordinariat will understand!)

I got it too.
Years as organist in a spiky Anglican parish - "You want maniples? I'll show you maniples!" etc. Hadn't seen as many birettas since the seminary. His bishop was evangelical, so confirmations were always interesting. Watching his lordship incensing the altar in mass vestments taught me the meaning of the phrase having an "old fashioned" expression.

[Calum Cille]

Less Latin

I have been in love with Latin ever since someone painted on the outside of my school, in letters six feet high "Veni, vidi, ivi." It just wouldn't have been funny in English (or Welsh, or Gaelic).

Except that it isn't funny in Latin because it doesn't work whereas "tigim, cím, imím" does work. I suggest "veni, vidi, abii."

More elements of pop culture

Many would consider that an oxymoron.

The person who uploaded the following video to Youtube thought the lyrics were "awesome".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZeAnJ-G-Rw

[Southern Comfort]

Less Latin

I have been in love with Latin ever since someone painted on the outside of my school, in letters six feet high "Veni, vidi, ivi." It just wouldn't have been funny in English (or Welsh, or Gaelic).

Except that it isn't funny in Latin because it doesn't work whereas "tigim, cím, imím" does work. I suggest "veni, vidi, abii.

Come on, lighten up, CC!

It's not supposed to work in Latin, only in English. "ivi" is clearly intended to be "ivy", which is mildly (if not very) funny. Just the sort of thing a silly schoolboy would do and then run away giggling.

[nazard]

Gentlefolk, calm down. I think the perpetrator was correct, vide perfect tense of eo. The headmaster did not question the grammar, but merely hit the roof instead. If the perpetrator ever admits to doing it, which might happen over a few pints of Banks', I will pass on your views. Whether the perpetrator made a conscious decision to use the alternative form, or was merely slipshod I don't know, but it did nicely echo Caesar's words.

[Eastern Promise]

Sacrifice, Schmacrifice. All we need is love, surely?

[contrabordun]

I thought vidi, vici, veni was the standard alternative smutty form?

[Dom Perignon]

I think that's about enough on latin('ish) graffiti. Can we now please return to the topic.