Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

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Calum Cille
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by Calum Cille »

nazard wrote:The point is that Jesus chose to ignore her lovelife except to mention that he knew about it. He felt it was more important to make her aware of the water which would quench her thirst for ever.


My point, which is in contradiction of your point, is that you have no evidence that he chose to ignore her love life because no confirmation is given one way or another concerning whether or not he communicated with the woman subsequent to the encounter at the well. In short, we cannot know for sure whether or not he 'laid down the law' about her love life. The woman about to be stoned for adultery was spoken to with an imperative, "do not sin again"; why didn't he 'ignore' her love life 'except to mention it'? We have the story of the Syrophoenician woman, whom he was at first far from respectful to, linking non-Jews to dogs.

Instructing Catholics to sing during mass not the same as telling either Catholics or non-Catholics what to do outside of liturgy. He was 'indignant' with the disciples when they were preventing children being brought to him and he issued an instruction then too. His response to a man with a dumb son was, "faithless generation, how long am I to put up with you," followed by an instruction. "He turned and said to Peter, "get behind me, Satan"". We have the book of Acts and letters of the New Testament, where the behaviour of individuals is often enough far from 'ignored except to mention it', with the counsel of excommunication for a man who had his father's wife.

Early church teaching was not completely namby-pamby.
Southern Comfort
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by Southern Comfort »

nazard wrote:East has always been interpreted as facing the apse for the purpose of mass rubrics. Altars were always either against the wall or had a reredos, so if the priest stood on the wrong side he would have difficulty with many of the other rubrics.


Oh yes? I think you'll find that the altar in St Peter's Basilica in Rome, and as well as that in St John Lateran, to name only two, have never had altars against a wall or reredos, and so presiders have always faced the people. And you'll find many examples in buildings from earlier eras where the presider and ministers were arranged around the curve of the apse, while the altar was freestanding in the middle of it.

People often use the rubric versus populum [turned towards the people] in the present Order of Mass to bolster their opinion that presiders should be facing ad orientem but turn back towards the people at these points. They are mistaken, alas. That rubric is a simple historical hangover. We forget that when the new Ordo Missae was first promulgated in 1969, all presiders (except those in churches such as the ones mentioned above) were still facing away from the people, and so the rubric reminding them to turn to the people was necessary. Once presiders had turned their position to celebrate facing the people, those rubrics became superfluous vestiges of a previous age, and can therefore be ignored.
Eastern Promise
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by Eastern Promise »

"Early church teaching was not completely namby pamby."

A pity. It's the namby pamby side of the church that I really, really like.
nazard
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by nazard »

Mea culpa - SC, you are quite right.I remember reading about it in a book by some liturgist - the name Gamber rings a bell, but I am not too sure. The phrase "ad orientem" is often used by the more careless of us as a synonym for "versus apsidum", which it isn't. Down here at St Hernia's our altar is at the north end, as it is at the Birmingham Oratory, and I think, the London Oratory. On the other hand, the English Martyrs in Cambridge and Westminster Cathedral it is at the south end, At the Oxford Oratory the west end and at Birmingham Cathedral, to be really awkward, at the north west.

Where the altar really is at the east end, for example at Downside Abbey, if mass is at dawn the effect is inspiring.

I have always taken the contemporary pressure for "ad orientem" to be actually pushing for "versus apsidum". Is this actually the case? I think that the symbolism generally looked for is not to be facing the second coming, but to be all facing the same way, a congregation being lead in prayer and sacrifice.

I am fairly confident that altars which could be used to say mass facing the people were common before 1969. Our church was built in 1962 and always had a free standing altar. The way it stands on its step would make saying mass with your back to the people something of a balancing act. This church near Dudley http://www.birminghamdiocese.org.uk/parish_directory_detail.asp?parish=315 was built in 1965 with a free standing altar. The Birmingham Oratory had a free standing altar by about that time. I think the reprehensible practice of destroying sanctuaries in the name of reordering did not really get under way until 1969.

The GIRM talks about it being desirable that altars should be constructed to allow versus populum celebration, but does it actually suggest or recommend or require it?
Eastern Promise
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by Eastern Promise »

I think you'll find that no sanctuaries were destroyed. They were just made more palatable - especially to our ecumenical partners, who found it much easier to come into Catholic Churches. What's not to like?
nazard
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by nazard »

Looking at Dubrovnik Cathedral I think destroyed is a fairly accurate term. Closer to home, try Corpus Christi, Weston super Mare. What's not to like - senseless destruction. As far as being made palatable to our ecumenical partners is concerned, they seem to have kept their own splendour. It may take us closer to the presbyterians, but it won't impress the Orthodox. Does anyone really expect a catholic church to look like Capel yr Anibynwyr?
Eastern Promise
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by Eastern Promise »

Most Catholics nowadays do! We like homely...
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Calum Cille
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by Calum Cille »

Southern Comfort wrote:People often use the rubric versus populum [turned towards the people] in the present Order of Mass to bolster their opinion that presiders should be facing ad orientem but turn back towards the people at these points. They are mistaken, alas.

Indeed. The priest may face east but is not required to.

Southern Comfort wrote:That rubric is a simple historical hangover.

Unless the priest is facing east.

Southern Comfort wrote:Once presiders had turned their position to celebrate facing the people, those rubrics became superfluous vestiges of a previous age, and can therefore be ignored.

For those priests who wish to face east, the rubric becomes an integral component of a resurgent practice and is, de facto, given attention.
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musicus
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by musicus »

Eastern Promise wrote:Most Catholics nowadays do! We like homely...

A belated welcome to the forum, Eastern Promise. Reading your torrent of posts today, I see you favour irony and generalisation. Do you have any other modes? Something less like trolling perhaps?
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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Eastern Promise
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by Eastern Promise »

Oh sorry musicus. There was no intention to be ironic, just supportive. I'll try better in future. Mea culpa.
Eastern Promise
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Re: Abuse of the Extraordinary Form?

Post by Eastern Promise »

I'm afraid I just got a bit excited at posting here for the first time that I just went a bit mad! I'll calm down, don't worry.
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