Institute of Liturgical Music

[John Ainslie]

May I refer those contributing to this thread to The Processional - a compilation, even thesaurus of texts from the Gradualia Romanum and Simplex prepared by the SSG. Go to http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Missal/Music/index.shtml and you'll find it at the foot of the page.

I've seen some attempts at simple chant settings of the Propers and have not been overly impressed. Some keep too closely to Latin originals and do violence to the English texts, other neo-Gregorian settings manage to do violence to the chant. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was its chant.

But nothing ventured, nothing dared. Composers, go to it!

[musicus]

Having previously seen only a sample of the Processional to which John refers, I am delighted that the full text is now so easily available. I, for one, will have a go.

[alan29]

On a totally geeky note ....... when did it go back to being called the Offertory? Or did it never change?
SC I totally agree with you. In fact the parish where I worshipped as a lad never, ever sang the propers in any form at all at High Mass. This was in the 50's. I seem to remember hymns from the Westminster Hymnal being led by a choir, and a couple of plainchant bits of the ordinary being sung. I have a vague recollection of some "barbershoppy" glorias.
However when endless pains are taken to get the vestments, architecture and choreography correct it seems like a "fail" not to get the music spot on too.

[John Ainslie]

On a totally geeky note ....... when did it go back to being called the Offertory? Or did it never change?

Interesting question. I've just looked up GIRM. The first part of the Liturgy of the Eucharist is entitled 'Preparation of the Gifts'. The gifts that are brought to the altar are called 'offerings' and the rite that is performed on them is 'offering'. The priest will say in the new translation 'the bread/wine we offer you'. This part ends with the Prayer over the Offerings.

The only use of the word Offertory is in 'Offertory chant', which is a reference back to the 'Offertorium', technical name for the antiphon still to be found in the Graduale, but by extension commonly used of the song sung during the procession. 'The procession bringing the gifts is accompanied by the Offertory chant' (GIRM 74): it is not officially called 'Offertory procession', despite common usage.

[presbyter]

The statement said that Fr Nicholls would be setting up a school for liturgical music in partnership with the Maryvale Institute.

Fr Richard Duffield, provost at the Oratory, said its focus initially would be to teach Gregorian chant to clergy who want to set up choirs in their parishes. He said it aimed to “implement the Holy Father’s desire to have more plainchant and Latin in the liturgy”.”

[contrabordun]

Fr Richard Duffield, provost at the Oratory, said its focus initially would be to teach Gregorian chant to clergy who want to set up choirs in their parishes.

I imagine it will be rushed off its feet.

[alan29]

Fr Richard Duffield, provost at the Oratory, said its focus initially would be to teach Gregorian chant to clergy who want to set up choirs in their parishes.

I imagine it will be rushed off its feet.

[Calum Cille]

When our previous parish priest was with us, I used to teach the choir two gregorian communion antiphons a year. It took six weeks to get the choir to an acceptable standard. We did no other gregorian propers at all. Just from a practicality point of view, the average parish needs something a lot simpler.

If it's a short one, my Gregorian chant group, Salmaire, filled with mostly untrained singers, spends half an hour on learning an introit antiphon melody one week, another half hour the next week, and then just sings it through a few times for the next two weeks, and we have the words and tune off by heart in five to six weeks. The group starts on the next introit antiphon on the fifth week. Longer introit antiphons take three half hour sessions and are memorised in about seven weeks. The fact that I use strict proportional rhythms for communal chants might make the memorisation process easier.

At this rate, it would take the group five years to learn the introit antiphon for every Sunday of the year! Mind you, imagine a parish choir attempting the same thing. In ten years, they could have almost the entire introit and communion antiphon repertoire for Sundays off by heart. I don't think I'd trouble a parish choir with graduals or alleluias, on account of congregational participation; I'd probably teach them the odd offertory response though.

[alan29]

When our previous parish priest was with us, I used to teach the choir two gregorian communion antiphons a year. It took six weeks to get the choir to an acceptable standard. We did no other gregorian propers at all. Just from a practicality point of view, the average parish needs something a lot simpler.

If it's a short one, my Gregorian chant group, Salmaire, filled with mostly untrained singers, spends half an hour on learning an introit antiphon melody one week, another half hour the next week, and then just sings it through a few times for the next two weeks, and we have the words and tune off by heart in five to six weeks. The group starts on the next introit antiphon on the fifth week. Longer introit antiphons take three half hour sessions and are memorised in about seven weeks. The fact that I use strict proportional rhythms for communal chants might make the memorisation process easier.

At this rate, it would take the group five years to learn the introit antiphon for every Sunday of the year! Mind you, imagine a parish choir attempting the same thing. In ten years, they could have almost the entire introit and communion antiphon repertoire for Sundays off by heart. I don't think I'd trouble a parish choir with graduals or alleluias, on account of congregational participation; I'd probably teach them the odd offertory response though.

I thought the Introit antiphon should ideally be sung by all, with a smaller group singing the verses of the psalm. Or am I all at sea?

[presbyter]

Aspirations in full here:

http://oratorymusic.org.uk/introduction_full.asp

[Calum Cille]

I thought the Introit antiphon should ideally be sung by all, with a smaller group singing the verses of the psalm. Or am I all at sea?

"The singing at this time is done either alternately by

the choir and the people

or in a similar way by the cantor and the people,

or entirely by the people,

or by the choir alone."

"If there is no singing at the Entrance, the antiphon in the Missal is recited either

by the faithful,

or by some of them,

or by a lector;

otherwise, it is recited by the priest himself, who may even adapt it as an introductory explanation ... ."

Why bother, let's all sing a hymn, that's much easier and the kids can join in. More dumbing down, anyone? No?

The idea that congregations should participate in proper texts is surely only meaningful in two types of culture:-

a) one where the people can all read and have the text of the proper of the day set before them

b) one where the people can't all read but they love learning mass propers off by heart (yes, I know, it doesn't exist, that's my point).

In other words, I don't really feel the mass proper is innately suited to congregations, even for reading, never mind singing. For example, if you are illiterate, or forgot your glasses, or can't read the tiny print, you are excluded from taking part in the mass proper; yet you can still easily join in the ordinary via that amazing and miraculous feat of having actually taken the trouble to memorise it.

The name of my Gregorian chant group is not without implication: my thing would not be to get congregations singing proper introit texts but the psalms that the proper texts were meant to frame before the vernacular hymns took over. However, no one I have talked to is interested in that approach, despite the relative melodic simplicity of psalm tones. You could even do them on one note and, framed by a chanted antiphon, it would be musically effective. I know it means singing the antiphon at least once and a bit, and maybe that isn't very appropriate for small churches, but anything is better than the great low mass mumble in a big church. I just don't get why you'd rush to mumble an entrance antiphon any more than you'd want to mumble For All The Saints.

[presbyter]

Aspirations in full here:

http://oratorymusic.org.uk/introduction_full.asp

I am quoting myself in the hope that we can discuss the topic - the NILM.

[musicus]

Indeed, presbyter. Back to the topic please (or start a new thread).

[Southern Comfort]

The new ICEL translation of the Mass not only follows the meaning and register of the original Latin texts far more closely than the old ICEL did, but has also been designed to be more easily sung – in the sense that there is a natural rhythm and flow to the texts which makes musical setting sound more natural.

Really? I have spent the last month demonstrating to people the immense problems that are inherent in just the first two lines of the revised Gloria. Composers (including some illustrious members of this forum) have adopted many different solutions, and many of those are not wholly satisfactory (including some of those of the illustrious members). The revised translation is much harder work for the composer than the current one has been.

There is also the important, though perhaps rather specialised, art of composing music for the liturgy. This, too, requires both musical training and theological knowledge in order to help composers know what is required of them and just how their skills are put to best use in the liturgy.

I dare to suggest that most composers in fact do not have the theological knowledge required, and this includes those who may be supporting the work of the institute.

Composers need to know what kind of music is suitable for particular circumstances, for differing levels of competence and ambition among performers, how instruments should be used and what elements make congregational music work well.

This, however, is very good, especially the last seven words (as opposed to the Seven Last Words! ).

[Eastern Promise]

Yes, the new Gloria is quite difficult, especially for stupid people, like me.

In some of the parishes I have visited recently I have seen/heard By Flowing Waters in use. When Entrance Antiphons from this are used, the congregation sings the Antiphon as a response and the choir or cantor sings the verses. So, if a parish is used to a sung Responsorial Psalm, the idea of these other responsorial points is straightforward to grasp. But I'm just a punter, not a musician or liturgist, so maybe I'm missing something.

As far as this new Institute is concerned I agree with some of the implications here that we need to get our excuses in early. It makes me feel a bit jittery, if you know what I mean. And they definitely need to get a composer on board who is theologically astute - a latter day Messiaen, perhaps. Somebody like Paul Inwood or some such - someone who understands the spirit of the age.