9th International Congress on the Liturgy - S Anselmo

[JW]

Instruction of ECCLESIA DEI April 2011

19. The faithful who ask for the celebration of the forma extraordinaria must not in any way support or belong to groups which show themselves to be against the validity or legitimacy of the Holy Mass or the Sacraments celebrated in the forma ordinaria ...........

Well, if I might say so, there's a sentence that some members of a certain society really should take to heart. I'm sure that as they profess profound allegiance to the Holy See in all matters - and not just the ones that suit their own personal tastes - they will do so.

If you are against the validity or legitimacy of the ordinary form, how can you profess allegiance to the Holy See, when the Pope himself celebrates in the ordinary form?Perhaps this quote may be aimed rather at members of the SPPX, who certainly do not consider the ordinary form to be valid - but then Ecclesia Dei is irrelevant to them as they do not accept the Pope's authority.

[presbyter]

Knowledge of Latin is not in any way necessary to an appreciation of the Traditional Mass

[presbyter]

If you are against the validity or legitimacy of the ordinary form, how can you profess allegiance to the Holy See, when the Pope himself celebrates in the ordinary form?

Doubtless some people argue freedom of conscience JW.

[presbyter]

Looks as if someone asked for a clarification....

Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary.

The Sacred Triduum

33. If there is a qualified priest, a coetus fidelium ("group of faithful"), which follows the older liturgical tradition, can also celebrate the Sacred Triduum in the forma extraordinaria. When there is no church or oratory designated exclusively for such celebrations, the parish priest or Ordinary, in agreement with the qualified priest, should find some arrangement favourable to the good of souls, not excluding the possibility of a repetition of the celebration of the Sacred Triduum in the same church.

Early on Holy Saturday morning again?

[presbyter]

Among the statements of the Holy Father was the following: "There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the Liturgy growth and progress are found, but not a rupture. What was sacred for prior generations, remains sacred and great for us as well, and cannot be suddenly prohibited altogether or even judged harmful."

Well OK but on that logic, I could interpret this paragraph as enabling me to load my .pdf of the Bobbio Missal into an iPad, stick the iPad on a missal stand and celebrate in that manner tomorrow.
I don't think the Bobbio Missal has ever been judged harmful, has it?

What if I celebrated a simple but truly Apostolic Liturgy (of which St Paul has knowledge) - the Didache? You can't say that the rite in the Didache was not sacred for first generation Christians or that it was harmful.

[Calum Cille]

I'd like to see die-hard "Extraordinary Form" rubricists being significantly influenced by the "Ordinary Form", apart from in minor matters such as the 'fluency' of performing rubrics. I'd also like to see die-hard "Ordinary Form" active participators being significantly influenced by the priest saying the Our Father on his own and suchlike, rather than just developing a sense of active reverence.

[presbyter]

Please do take note that from our Holy Father (then as Prefect of the SCDF) there is also this:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

His theology of the liturgy is not driven by nostalgia and romanticism. I think he's taking Sacrosanctum Concilium paragraph 2 very seriously. I just wish he'd make that a bit more obvious!

[gwyn]

Presbyter mused,

I have no problem if a group would like to celebrate the OF in Latin (and why, in these documents, does Rome not promote that way of celebration?)

Similarly, I've often wondered why Rome didn't simply permit the EF to be celebrated but via its often beautiful English translation.

[John Ainslie]

Early on Holy Saturday morning again?

Er, no. The 1962 Missal contains the Holy Week liturgies as reformed in the 1950s. The Easter Vigil is to start at a 'competent hour, namely, that which may permit the solemn Mass of the Vigil to start about midnight between Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday. Where, however, having taken account of the conditions of the faithful and location, according the judgement of the Ordinary of the place, it is appropriate [conveniat] to anticipate the hour of celebration of the Vigil, this may not start before twilight, and certainly not before sunset. The private celebration of the Easter Vigil is forbidden [interdicitur].'

[mcb]

The 1962 Missal contains the Holy Week liturgies as reformed in the 1950s.'

Incidentally, the Easter Vigil in the 1962 Missal will be the one place remaining, once the new English translation of the current Missal comes in, where we find credimus (we believe, or actually we do in the context of the rite in English) rather than credo/I do for the profession of faith. It's in the renewal of baptismal promises. I wonder when it was changed to credo?

[Southern Comfort]

The 1961 Liber Usualis, available here http://musicasacra.com/2007/07/17/liber-usualis-online/, gives the English translation as "We do believe", which is what I was brought up on. This continued until the revised Holy Week rites appeared (1969 in Latin, early 1970 in English).

[presbyter]

The Sacred Triduum
should find some arrangement favourable to the good of souls, not excluding the possibility of a repetition of the celebration of the Sacred Triduum in the same church.

I'm just trying to imagine the practicalities of actually doing this.... and hoping I don't have to!

[Southern Comfort]

The Sacred Triduum
should find some arrangement favourable to the good of souls, not excluding the possibility of a repetition of the celebration of the Sacred Triduum in the same church.

I'm just trying to imagine the practicalities of actually doing this.... and hoping I don't have to!

I'm hoping you don't either. This is already being discussed on other forums. Here are some of the questions that are being asked:

(1) Since the Triduum may now be celebrated in the Extraordinary Form, is the Vigil also to start after dark?
(2) Two Vigils? How is that possible?
(3) What do we do with all the water we blessed at the first Vigil? Does it have to be poured down the sacrarium?
(4) Do we have two Easter candles or one? And if we have one, do we need to chop off the top after the first celebration so that we will not be relighting the same wick?
(5) if we have two do we burn one at the funerals held in the extraordinary form and one for the ordinary form? Which one do we put by the ambo for the Easter Season? Both?
(6) And what of any leftover hosts after the first Vigil? Does the tabernacle have to be empty before the second Vigil starts? Do we consume the leftover hosts or hide them in the safe till Sunday morning?
(7) Also, in the extraordinary form, do they celebrate full initiation at the Vigil? Just baptism? Are the norms of the RCIA still in place or are they no longer universal?
(8) with this new exception given to the extraordinary form to have multiple vigils, how do we convince the Neo-Catechumenal Way that they may not have a second Easter Vigil Mass after the parish's Easter Vigil because there is only to be one Vigil according to liturgical law?

And a question, not exactly related but interesting, deriving from the covering letter to Summorum Pontificum:

What was sacred for prior generations, remains sacred and great for us as well, and cannot be suddenly prohibited altogether or even judged harmful.

(9) With such a statement from the Holy Father himself, how can we convince our people that when the third typical edition of the Roman Missal is promulgated, they cannot still use the second typical edition?

[Southern Comfort]

While we're at Ecclesia Dei, some more points:

24. The liturgical books of the forma extraordinaria are to be used as they are. All those who wish to celebrate according to the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite must know the pertinent rubrics and are obliged to follow them correctly.
27. With regard to the disciplinary norms connected to celebration, the ecclesiastical discipline contained in the Code of Canon Law of 1983 applies.
28. Furthermore, by virtue of its character of special law, within its own area, the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum derogates from those provisions of law, connected with the sacred Rites, promulgated from 1962 onwards and incompatible with the rubrics of the liturgical books in effect in 1962.

Other forums are asking how this helps to answer such questions as:

1. May communion be distributed under both species?
2. May extraordinary ministers of holy communion be used? (male or female)
3. May one receive communion standing, or must one kneel? How about communion in the hand?
4. May lay persons (esp. lay women) proclaim the scriptures?
5. May girls also assist at the altar? (The Vatican spokesperson simply sidestepped that question by saying that this document does not address the issue.)
6. Since "permanent" deacons did not exist in 1962, do they have any role in the extraordinary form?
7. Which eucharistic fast ought to be observed?
8. Is concelebration allowed?
9. What liturgical items must be used? (ex: maniple, tunicle)
10. May a priest preside at more than 2 Masses on a day (3 on a Sunday) if the extra one is to be in the extraordinary form?

In other words, does 1962 take precedence over the 1983 CCL, or is it the other way round?

And does the new instruction affect the norms regarding altars in GIRM 299 (built apart from the wall...Mass be celebrated facing the people...) and GIRM 303 (...preferable to erect a single altar...signify the one Christ and the one Eucharist...). In other words, are there to be two altars, one for the ordinary form of the Mass and one for the extraordinary, or are both forms of the Mass to be celebrated at the same altar? You can still stand with your back to the people at one altar away from the wall. This is a serious concern for church design/renovation/building.

[presbyter]

How about - inbetween celebrations, how do you return the church to its pre-Vigil starkness? If statues etc. are covered in purple and no flowers visible initially, how do you restore that state in a limited time?