The New Texts: Formation (discussion)

[musicus]

I have only skimmed this thread. I hope tis the right one to ask about the DVD our PP has bought called "Becoming the body and spirit of Christ" or something.

Yup. This is the right place.

[Southern Comfort]

I have only skimmed this thread. I hope tis the right one to ask about the DVD our PP has bought called "Becoming the body and spirit of Christ" or something.

Yup. This is the right place.

and oops, you may find that he didn't actually buy it himself but his bishop bought it for him. Some dioceses have ordered the DVD and the Paul Turner book in bulk for their clergy.

[Calum Cille]

Interestingly (well, at least to me) we don't find "sanct -OOOO - OOOOS" nearly as objectionable as Ho - LEEE - EEEE, though it ought equally to be SANC - tus. Might that be just because we are not native Latin speakers and don't have an instinctive feel for the language? - Or is it perhaps due to that arcane (and only vaguely remembered) difference between the plainsong ictus and the "beat" as we would know it - the ictus being defined (in the introduction to the Liber Usualis, I seem to remember) as in some way an "up beat" rather than a "down beat". Perhaps some true expert in plainsong would care to comment. Either way, I think it illustrates the problem of trying to take advantage of a familiar "tune" to set a different text - (pace "I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue" listeners) not only at the micro level of the syllables but at the higher level of the whole shape and emphasis of the phrases. Much better to have written a completely new "tune" allowing it to emerge and flow from the actual words being set.

Q

. . and in the current example (I meant to add) is it not simply solved by singing "ho-ly" as "long - short- short" approximationg to "1-2, 3, 4" in a four beat measure?

(I am reminded of the Sans Day carol where the arty versions have "and the first tree in the greenwood it was the hol- LEE. Hol - LEEE, hol - LEEE. And the first . . .etc "(where Hol - LEE is beat (?beaten - ?beated) "3, 1-2, 3,1-2") but in the folk clubs it's "Hol - ly, (rest), Ho-ol ly" starting 1,2, 3-on-the-rest) (I trust I made that perfectly clear!)

Q

(edited to put double l in "holly" throughout"!)

Study of the most ancient notations relieves us of the requirement to follow theories which would have choirs generally sing short notes on one note syllables and generally reserve long notes for syllables of more than one note. Such theories could especially encourage unwary English speakers to stress the "-tus" over the "sanc-" in "sanctus" if the 2 notes of the "-tus" are marked long.

The notation in Laon 239 for the first word of "Data est mihi" indicates a rhythm of 1 long on the 1st syllable + 2 shorts on the 2nd syllable and there are a lot of other chants which start with a similar melodic rhythm on the opening two syllable word. I take a 1 long + 2 longs solution for the first two words of this 13th century Sanctus. That precise rhythm wouldn't be common at the start of chants in the older chant repertoire but something similar to 1 long + 2 longs can be found at the first words of the introit "Scio cui credidi", the offertories "Deus enim firmavit orbem", "Tui sunt caeli", and the communion "Notas mihi". There we have 1 long + 2 longs with a short interjectory note similar in effect to a grace note at the beginning of the second syllable.

Treating all one note syllables as long provides a solution to many questions about the relation of verbal stress to melody, as both stressed and unstressed syllables land on a beat under this interpretation, which makes the rhythm of Gregorian chant similar to communal Christian chant in the Eastern Mediterranean and allows a satisfyingly straightforward interpretation of the historical record which overwhelmingly advocates a 2:1 ratio for the longs and shorts of Gregorian chant.

[musicus]

Thank you - and welcome to the forum!

[Calum Cille]

Thank you for the welcome, musicus!

[presbyter]

Thank you for the welcome, musicus!

Welcome from me too. If anyone is scratching a head about Calum Cille's post - bring up his profile - go to his website - click English if as myself, you are a native of south of the border - grab your copy of Graduale Triplex - and sing. Interesting project you have there CC.

[Calum Cille]

Thanks for the interest, πρεσβύτερέ μου! I'm about to go off the topic but what I'm about to say about the Salmaire project does relate to issues surrounding the learning of liturgical texts and formation.

The practice of singing Latin antiphons in Scotland is currently not merely restricted but moreover restricted mainly to people who can sight-sing music. Since modern Gaels still memorise quite lengthy songs, just as the earliest practitioners of Latin chant did, it occurs to me that restricting such a repertoire to musically literate singers is unnecessary: one can make a valid effort to teach less musically-literate adult singers to learn off by heart introits and communions for certain important feasts plus psalm tones.

It takes time as progress is very slow but it works. Some members of Salmaire have given up, as the modern-day adults of Edinburgh find the discipline of memorising an overly demanding activity in their personal lives but, for those willing and able to commit to memorising chant, the reward is long-lasting. The complexity of some of the tunes does provide initial difficulties but ultimately makes the chant more fulfilling after multiple hearings. The main stumbling block is the memorisation of the words of whole Latin psalms and hymns which requires the humungous effort of homework from the singers! I assign one verse of the psalm to each singer for them to memorise which saves them having to learn the words of the whole psalm off by heart. During the initial learning process, we sing the whole psalm through however; this helps us to master matching the melody to the words and gives us an opportunity to practice up the antiphon by repeating it between the psalm verses.

The group remains quite small (only six members) but I believe that the main reason for that is people not having heard of the group. It's very difficult to advertise Salmaire as the local radio stations have not been helpful, although I'm pleased to report that the Catholic clergy in Edinburgh have been supportive by taking advertising material for their parishes. Gumtree has been very useful for attracting non-Catholics to the group, including atheists. The church might be shooting itself in the foot by minimising use in parishes of this repertoire which is evidently attractive to some.

The fact that the singers aren't very musically literate means that you can use the most ancient notations, such as those of Chartres 47, when introducing the chant. The "crossword puzzle" aspect of which signs are long and which short intrigues some. Others start to use the ancient signs to a limited degree to remind themselves of the rhythm of the notes of certain sections which cause them difficulty. They are very handy for notating psalm tones. Once the chant has been memorised, I can hand out the Graduale Triplex version which includes the square notation as a permanent record of the pitches and which is only then used by the singers for reference.

I commend this kind of project to all who would have the time and patience for it. It does involve going over the same ground for weeks but you then have a cadre of singers who can proceed to teach any of the chants they have memorised to others because they know them back to front and are also at ease with the didactic process of teaching chants orally. The group is looking forward to visiting the Coptic qodas in St Mark's in Kirkcaldy in Fife this coming Sunday where they'll get a chance to talk to folks there about their experience of learning, using and teaching chant as modern Copts.

[Calum Cille]

I mistakenly thought that we were discussing the beginning of Sanctus XVIII, the only one published by ICEL at
http://www.icelweb.org/musicfolder/openmusic.php but, reading elsewhere on the forum, I now realise the Sanctus XVI might be what quaeritor was referring to. If so, I'd refer to the beginnings of the introit "Esto mihi", the gradual "Ego autem" and the communions "Potum meum", "Mense septimo" and "Domus mea", which are all notated in Laon 239 with a long on the note on the first syllable of the first word and two (apparent) shorts for the two notes on the second syllable (see the neumes for "Domus mea" in particular). However, the chant in the missal which begins closest in both rhythm and melodic direction to the start of the Sanctus XVI is perhaps the introit "Deus, dum egrederéris". Since there is comma written there and we see find the same 1 long + 2 shorts pattern for the two syllables of the first word, I think the use of the same rhythm for Sanctus XVI would be quite appropriate given the melodic/prosodic context.

[quaeritor]

I mistakenly thought that we were discussing the beginning of Sanctus XVIII,

That's what I had in mind. ("sanctus" definitely "short long-long" in my aged Liber. I'd better go back over the thread and see where the confusion has arisen - but not tonight, I fear.

Q

[Calum Cille]

Thank you, quaeritor, I wasn't sure. NorthernTenor's reference to 'shorts' made here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1221 made me wonder if there was an ICEL setting I hadn't seen. All the ICEL sets I've looked at give no indication of rhythmic durations such as longs or shorts.

[alan29]

I mistakenly thought that we were discussing the beginning of Sanctus XVIII,

That's what I had in mind. ("sanctus" definitely "short long-long" in my aged Liber. I'd better go back over the thread and see where the confusion has arisen - but not tonight, I fear.

Q

And thats how it has always been sung whenever I have heard/sung it. It needs a bit of sensitivity not to make it sound "wrong."

[quaeritor]

All the ICEL sets I've looked at give no indication of rhythmic durations such as longs or shorts.

Interesting, that - I thought perhaps I was just misunderstanding some aspect of the notation, though I confess I haven't given it much thought so far. What are we supposed to do with these settings? - just wait to see what happens? leave it to a sort of "folk process"? Make our own "local rules"? (It's worked to an extent in the past I suppose- cf the various "received" versions of the De Angelis Sanctus - spurious long notes all over the place - I've even seen them in print.)

Q

[Calum Cille]

What are we supposed to do with these settings? - just wait to see what happens? leave it to a sort of "folk process"? Make our own "local rules"?

Q

Indeed. What do you do with Gregorian chants when their oldest copies are written in square notation with no rhythmic information? One has to develop a rhythmic theory or just carry on doing what is currently being done.

Dom Mocquereau's rhythmic theory having been junked by most chant scholars, some people have changed their interpretation accordingly. My own reading of the historical record is that proportional durations have always been used until the Romantic-era innovations of Solesmes in the 19th century and that Dom Mocquereau was wrong to say that the ancient authorities didn't really know what they were talking about. Many ancient notations can be interpreted as containing signs divided into sets of long and short notes and my advice would be that those who can read such rhythmically differentiated notation use them to interpret the repertoire.

It is important to recognise that chant rhythm has been subject to stages of change (sometimes quite fundamental change) from place to place throughout the second millenium. In a sense, the degree of change in certain past innovations in rhythm gives us some grounds for redesigning chant rhythm according to any rhythm we would find attractive today. Music treatises shortly after the turn of the second millenium ostensibly indicate that part of the style then was to hold the last notes of certain words and phrases and clauses, with shorter holds for the ends of the phrases, and longer holds for the ends of the clauses plus a breath. Applying this to the case of the start of Sanctus XVIII, one could envisage a rhythm of 1 note + 1 note and 1 held note.

[gwyn]

Are any parishes planning to learn the Missal tones before introducing locally cooked and other settings?
It'd might be nice to have a common repertoir.

[Nick Baty]

I agree that common repertoire is important. But I honestly couldn't see the missal tones working with our assembly – doubt I'd even get a whisper from them.