The New Texts: Formation (discussion)

[Nick Baty]

Interesting discussion on Sunday Sequence on BBC Radio Ulster: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radioulster/
Forward to 55'
Contributions from Philip Endean, Kevin McGinell and Anthony Ruff.

[quaeritor]

"Interesting" maybe, but how do I find it?

(Is there a smiley for "not-very-bright-techo"?

Q

[musicus]

1. Click the link that Nick has posted to open a new page
2. then click the Sunday Sequence link (it's in the Talk section) to open another page
3. now click on the Listen Now button (top-left, just below the photo)
4. finally, when iPlayer opens, drag the play cursor to around 55mins 30sec. Et voilà!
5. If you can't hear anything, turn up the volume on your computer and/or your loudspeakers.

[Southern Comfort]

any setting from whatever source that holds up "HoLY, hoLY" as an example of setting English to music can't be taken seriously.

Try singing it to "One-NIL. One-NIL. You ain't playin' a-ny-more".

Thanks, Nick. That's the most sensible suggestion I've heard yet for dealing with this 'barbarism'. As you may have discovered, the writers of the ICEL chant did think of leaving 'Ho-ly, ho-ly' as currently (single note on each syllable) but, in contravention of their own stated principles, decided "to imitate the Latin". Wrong!

I learnt today that Archbishop Nichols is expecting all parishes in the Westminster archdiocese to learn the ICEL music in the Missal so that everyone knows a single setting. Fair enough. I wonder what effect that might have on congregational singing in Westminster Cathedral?

On Saturday I happened to be sitting in the last few minutes of a workshop given by the chair of the 'committee-ette' (three persons) which produced the ICEL chants, and in fact the person who insisted on Ho-LEE-EE... To my astonishment, I heard him say that he thought that the first two words of the Latin Sanctus XVI ought to be sung as three equal notes, San-ctu-us, without giving any reason why. I said to my neighbour, "Aha, well in that case why has he insisted on Ho-LEE-EE for the new English version?" As if he was reading my mind, the presenter then said he thought the English ought to have only two notes, Ho-ly, B-A, as in the current Missal, which is what many of us including John Ainslie have been saying, but given that the committee (he was clearly trying to distance himself from it) had set it as three notes, then it too ought to be sung as three equal notes, B-B-A. That certainly takes the edge off the misaccentuation. I did not have the heart to ask him why on earth it hadn't been notated as such, and why he had changed his mind.....

Grrrrrrrrr!

It is quite clear that we need a set of our own chants to replace those that have been produced by ICEL. Some of us knew this would happen — a sense of déjà vu, since the same c*ck-up happened with the ICEL 1973 chants and Laurence Hollis (remember him?).

[quaeritor]

Interestingly (well, at least to me) we don't find "sanct -OOOO - OOOOS" nearly as objectionable as Ho - LEEE - EEEE, though it ought equally to be SANC - tus. Might that be just because we are not native Latin speakers and don't have an instinctive feel for the language? - Or is it perhaps due to that arcane (and only vaguely remembered) difference between the plainsong ictus and the "beat" as we would know it - the ictus being defined (in the introduction to the Liber Usualis, I seem to remember) as in some way an "up beat" rather than a "down beat". Perhaps some true expert in plainsong would care to comment. Either way, I think it illustrates the problem of trying to take advantage of a familiar "tune" to set a different text - (pace "I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue" listeners) not only at the micro level of the syllables but at the higher level of the whole shape and emphasis of the phrases. Much better to have written a completely new "tune" allowing it to emerge and flow from the actual words being set.

Q

[quaeritor]

. . and in the current example (I meant to add) is it not simply solved by singing "ho-ly" as "long - short- short" approximationg to "1-2, 3, 4" in a four beat measure?

(I am reminded of the Sans Day carol where the arty versions have "and the first tree in the greenwood it was the hol- LEE. Hol - LEEE, hol - LEEE. And the first . . .etc "(where Hol - LEE is beat (?beaten - ?beated) "3, 1-2, 3,1-2") but in the folk clubs it's "Hol - ly, (rest), Ho-ol ly" starting 1,2, 3-on-the-rest) (I trust I made that perfectly clear!)

Q

(edited to put double l in "holly" throughout"!)

[alan29]

Interestingly (well, at least to me) we don't find "sanct -OOOO - OOOOS" nearly as objectionable as Ho - LEEE - EEEE, though it ought equally to be SANC - tus. Might that be just because we are not native Latin speakers and don't have an instinctive feel for the language? - Or is it perhaps due to that arcane (and only vaguely remembered) difference between the plainsong ictus and the "beat" as we would know it - the ictus being defined (in the introduction to the Liber Usualis, I seem to remember) as in some way an "up beat" rather than a "down beat". Perhaps some true expert in plainsong would care to comment. Either way, I think it illustrates the problem of trying to take advantage of a familiar "tune" to set a different text - (pace "I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue" listeners) not only at the micro level of the syllables but at the higher level of the whole shape and emphasis of the phrases. Much better to have written a completely new "tune" allowing it to emerge and flow from the actual words being set.

Q

It might be that the two syllables in Sanctus are closer in "weight" when spoken than the equivalent in Holy, where the -ly is usually lighter?
All those Missal tones are a bit of a dogs dinner to be honest. They suffer from the same preoccupation - to cleave to the Latin while committing GBH on our language.

[Nick Baty]

Oh, it's all a pile of hifalutin words not allowed on here.

[HallamPhil]

From my hut in Goa I note the following in Arundel & Brighton, courtesy of Catholic independent

Bishop Conry to introduces new Missal in Arundel & Brighton | new English translation, Roman Missal,Bishop Kieran Conry, Arundel & Brighton

Bishop Kieran Conry
With the introduction of the new English translation of the Roman Missal planned for this autumn, Bishop Kieran Conry is to introduce it at three evening sessions in the diocese of Arundel & Brighton. These sessions which are open to all will take place on Tuesday 15 March at St Martha's, Bexhill, Wednesday 16 March at St Joseph's, Epsom or Thursday 24 March at St John's, Horsham.

The Roman Missal contains all the prayers used during Mass. The Bishops of England and Wales, following the Holy Father’s encouragement that this new translation is an opportunity for ‘in-depth catechesis on the Eucharist and renewed devotion in the manner of its celebration’, have decided that from September 2011, the Order of Mass in the new translation will be used in parishes in England and Wales. The Order of Mass contains those texts of both priest and people which are constant at each celebration of Mass. For three months from September 2011 until December 2011 there will be catechesis (training and preparation) in parishes both on the new translation and on the Mass itself. This will precede the publication of the entire newly translated Missal which at the earliest is expected by Advent 2011.

In the diocese of Arundel & Brighton, Bishop Kieran and all the clergy have had the opportunity of training with leading liturgist, Canon Alan Griffiths. One attendee, Deacon Mark Woods said: “There were extremely positive conferences. We all came away knowing much more about why the changes are happening, how we can present them to our parishes, and more importantly about the chance this gives for a deepening of our understanding of the celebration of Mass.”

The Bishop is also leading a working group which has arranged a whole series of events for the coming months which will be open to parish leaders and parishioners over the coming months. These include sessions with leading liturgists Canon Alan Griffiths from UK and Fr Paul Turner from USA. They will also be numerous opportunities to look at the many resources available for use in parishes. More information can be found on the diocesan website www.dabnet.org.

[presbyter]

http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Missal/Resources/Resources.pdf

These items are imminent, I understand, and if I remember correctly, a dedicated web domain is on the horizon - http://www.missal.org.uk

Click on that at the moment and it goes to the Liturgy Office site.

[presbyter]

Paul Turner's Book is selling like hot cakes -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-R ... 0855977213

There is also a leader's guide published for group sessions

[presbyter]

And if you are interested in what the Missal will look like - and the meaning of the Greek letters........

http://ctscatholiccompass.org/category/roman-missal/

[Gabriel]

http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Missal/Resources/Resources.pdf

These items are imminent, I understand, and if I remember correctly, a dedicated web domain is on the horizon - http://www.missal.org.uk

Click on that at the moment and it goes to the Liturgy Office site.

I am sure the vast staff of the Liturgy Office are working on these but if I heard correctly it was said they would be available in March which may not be the beginning of March...

[presbyter]

[
I am sure the vast staff of the Liturgy Office are working on these

We do need that irony emoticon

[oopsorganist]

Sorry to terrupt.

I have only skimmed this thread. I hope tis the right one to ask about the DVD our PP has bought called "Becoming the body and spirit of Christ" or something. We watched bits after Mass today but we got bored because we couldn't all hear the laptop speakers and it was a lot of talking heads. There were only five of us anyway. We did listen to some of the chanting but we got bored with that too.

That was our review of the materials of a DVD I can't properly remember the name of. Has anyone found anything useful on it for parish formation? Should we persevere or just wait for the new sheets to arrive?

Our group came to the conclusion that although we don't need to sing a four hymn sandwich we might as well carry on doing that just in case we get the other bits wrong. Without an OFLIT inspection on the horizon that might be pragmatic.