Lamb of God/Jesus Lamb of God

[docmattc]

While the Agnus Dei was said after and not before the commingling in the Sarum Use, the ICET texts* were certainly proscribed.

* Did you notice that skilful swerve back to the topic?

[alan29]

Back on topic (and in a more positive frame of mind)........ I'm wondering what the scope is for Fraction Songs? I'm thinking specifically of those that include the full text of the Lamb of God, but with extra repetitions using other invocations such as Bread of Life, Light of the World etc. We have use them quite a lot in the past.

[Southern Comfort]

Back on topic (and in a more positive frame of mind)........ I'm wondering what the scope is for Fraction Songs? I'm thinking specifically of those that include the full text of the Lamb of God, but with extra repetitions using other invocations such as Bread of Life, Light of the World etc. We have use them quite a lot in the past.

The answer is the same as before. In 1971, the Bishops' Conference permitted tropes in sung settings of the Lamb of God. This permission, too, has not been rescinded.

[alan29]

Back on topic (and in a more positive frame of mind)........ I'm wondering what the scope is for Fraction Songs? I'm thinking specifically of those that include the full text of the Lamb of God, but with extra repetitions using other invocations such as Bread of Life, Light of the World etc. We have use them quite a lot in the past.

The answer is the same as before. In 1971, the Bishops' Conference permitted tropes in sung settings of the Lamb of God. This permission, too, has not been rescinded.

Which isn't a lot of help as our bishops seem to have abrogated all responsibility for such decisions.

[presbyter]

Back on topic (and in a more positive frame of mind)........ I'm wondering what the scope is for Fraction Songs? I'm thinking specifically of those that include the full text of the Lamb of God, but with extra repetitions using other invocations such as Bread of Life, Light of the World etc. We have use them quite a lot in the past.

The answer is the same as before. In 1971, the Bishops' Conference permitted tropes in sung settings of the Lamb of God. This permission, too, has not been rescinded.

Taking on something of the role of an advocatus diaboli :

Two points:

1. The Bishops:

In the light of paragraphs such as SC 38 - 40; LA 22, 79,80; GIRM 397; RS 8 (on ecumenical initiatives) and 28 - manifestly an alternative text for the Lamb of God
could never be printed as a part of the typical edition of the Missal. Going further - in the light of RS 28 - our Bishops do not appear to possess juridical competence to promote an alternative text without recognitio from the Holy See. Whatever our Bishops might have done in 1971, the question of whether or not this practice has since received formal approval from the Dicastery needs to be raised.

2. Why do we need an alternative text? What sound theological, liturgical and pastoral considerations indicate that we do? What's so "wrong" with the liturgical text that an alternative should be promoted?
(Before anyone answers, please read at least RS 8 and LA 22)

I myself am forming an opinion that use of the ICET and similar troped texts is now proscribed, unless this practice has received Roman recognitio. I think it would be helpful if clarification could be obtained from the Liturgy Office.

[presbyter]

Furthermore: GIRM 366

The Chants
366. It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order
of Mass, such as at the Agnus Dei.

But then it could be argued that the alternative text is indeed an Agnus Dei.

[Gabriel]

There seem to be a number of issues in this conversation.

I suggest that SC might wish to consider the Order of Christian Funerals. He will note that the Decree is an act of the Bishops' Conference President not an act of the Conference. I would also note it says no previous versions may be used from a certain date. [There could be a separate discussion of the effectiveness of this but the intention seems to be clear]. I presume the new edition of the Missal will include something similar - it seems to me that Canonists may dance on a pinhead to say how all-encompassing it is or needs to be.

I do think there is a difference between the ICET text of the Lamb of God and many other 'troped' settings. The ICET text is a paraphrase of the Agnus Dei - it takes the Latin text and compresses it - 'Jesus, bearer of our sins, have mercy on us'. Other settings, which may have been inspired by the ICET text seem to me to be an adaptation, short titles of Christ - e.g. Risen Lord, you take away... There is a third category, which have quite extended invocations, not only a title but often an intention too. Though I am not sure what GIRM 366 is referring to it could well be this 3rd category. My impression is that there are relatively few settings of the ICET text in common use, whereas there are far more troped settings both written and in use. (Does this concur with other member's experience?)

The Guidelines seem to be strangely silent on this point - i.e. they do not say - 'this is not permitted'. I presume this is the type of thing where what the panel accepts will give a better idea of what is possible. If that is so the panel will need some sort of consistent approach - perhaps we might find out more at the composers days?

[presbyter]

For interest - here's the rationale behind the ICET/ELLC latest alternative text - note that the traditional liturgical text is described as "Alternative Version"!!

The source is http://www.englishtexts.org/praying.pdf

Agnus Dei

Jesus, Lamb of God,
have mercy on us.
Jesus, bearer of our sins,
have mercy on us.
Jesus, redeemer of the world,
grant us peace.

Alternative Version

Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world, grant us peace.

Caution here - the "Alternative version" is not our liturgical text - "sins" has become "sin" - see below

The Agnus Dei is an anthem in litany form traditionally sung or said to accompany the breaking of the consecrated bread at the Eucharist. In a varied form it occurs within the Gloria in Excelsis. It appears, for example, in The Book of Common Prayer of 1552 and 1662, not for use at holy communion but rather as a prayer within the litany.
Since its introduction in the seventh century into the Western liturgy the Agnus Dei has undergone a number of variations in Latin and vernacular forms. At first the petition miserere nobis (“have mercy on us”) was unchanged at each repetition, but in the tenth and eleventh centuries it became common to substitute in the last line dona nobis pacem (“grant us peace”). This was also varied at requiems to “grant them rest” and “grant them rest eternal.” The medieval period gave rise to other variations on the anthem. Sometimes phrases were added to bring out the meaning more clearly. In the Reformation liturgies of England and Germany, pacem in line 6 was rendered “thy peace” both to keep two syllables for musical reasons and under the influence of such texts as John 14:27. The German form also sought clarity by prefixing the name “Christ” to each of lines 1, 3, and 5.

“Lamb of God,” though full of meaning for those familiar with the biblical background in such passages as John 1:29, Isaiah 53:7, and Revelation 5:6ff., does not reveal its richness at first sight. The first form above, based on ICET, reveals some aspects of the meaning more clearly and immediately. The name “Jesus” has been prefixed to the title “Lamb of God” at the beginning of line 1. The name rather than the title is then used at the beginning of lines 3 and 5. Instead of the three-times-repeated relative clause qui tollis peccata mundi (“who take away the sins of the world”) a phrase is used in each of lines 3 and 5 to bring out the dual meaning of these words. The verb tollis, like the corresponding Greek verb aireis in John 1:29, means both “take away” and “bear” or “lift up.”

The alternative, more traditional, version is especially suitable when the Agnus Dei is treated as the accompaniment to a sometimes lengthy breaking of bread. “Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world, have mercy on us” may be repeated as many times as necessary.

In response to submissions received, the Consultation made three changes to the ICET text:
• In both versions the punctuation has been lightened by replacing the colon at the ends of
lines 1, 3, and 5 with commas.
• To accord more closely with the Gloria in Excelsis and John 1:29, “sin” has replaced
“sins” in the alternative version. The Consultation agrees that both the singular (a collective condition of alienation from God) and the plural (the many trangressions, individual and corporate, for which we need forgiveness) are legitimate and has therefore retained the plural in line 3 of the more modern version.
• The last lines of both versions have also been made to agree. This is less confusing for congregations where both versions have come into regular use. “Grant” was preferred to “give” as being more gracious in this context and a better translation of dona, as against da. There were some requests for the phrase “your peace” but the Consultation was reluctant to add something not found in the original Latin text.

I have no energy to comment on the above at the moment.

[presbyter]

The Bishops of the United States permit the following:

"When the Agnus Dei is sung repeatedly as a litany, Christological invocations with other texts may be used. In this case, the first and final invocations are always Agnus Dei (Lamb of God)."

(Sing to the Lord - Music in Divine Worship, 2007)

1.We ourselves are not under the jurisdiction of the US Bishops and should be guided by our own diocesan bishops and the BCEW.

2. What does "When the Agnus Dei is sung repeatedly as a litany......" mean? The text is de facto a litany! Does this phrase mean "When cantors sing the invocations and the people respond "have mercy on us/grant us peace" ? Not that clear, don't you think?

As Sing to the Lord is dated 2007, I imagine it will have been placed on someone's desk in the Palazzo delle Congregazioni for comment.

[presbyter]

Back on topic (and in a more positive frame of mind)........ I'm wondering what the scope is for Fraction Songs? I'm thinking specifically of those that include the full text of the Lamb of God, but with extra repetitions using other invocations such as Bread of Life, Light of the World etc. We have use them quite a lot in the past.

The answer is the same as before. In 1971, the Bishops' Conference permitted tropes in sung settings of the Lamb of God. This permission, too, has not been rescinded.

Now come on SC - tropes in general or just the ICET text? Your posts are ambiguous. Let's have a concrete reference please. Quote the text of the permission.

[presbyter]

MUSIC in the Parish Mass - BCEW, CTS 1981 states in paragraph 241:

"The 'Lamb of God' is a litany, and the invocations may be repeated until the breaking of bread is finished. It may well be sung antiphonally, i.e. cantor or choir singing invocations and the people responding 'Have mercy on us', etc. The concluding petition is always 'Grant us peace'. The ICET text (Jesus, Lamb of God) is permitted if sung."

There is no mention whatsoever of other tropes being permitted for liturgical use. I repeat, SC, please quote the permission that you state exists.

[presbyter]

My impression is that there are relatively few settings of the ICET text in common use, whereas there are far more troped settings both written and in use. (Does this concur with other member's experience?)

Yes.

For example - Celebration Hymnal for Everyone, 452-455; 457

Troped settings but not one setting of the ICET text.

[Southern Comfort]

As Sing to the Lord is dated 2007, I imagine it will have been placed on someone's desk in the Palazzo delle Congregazioni for comment.

No, as a matter of fact it wasn't. The US Bishops took a conscious decision in the end not to submit the text of their document to the Congregation. Sing to the Lord therefore has the same status as our own CTM.

[presbyter]

For interest - here's the rationale behind the ICET/ELLC latest alternative text........

“Lamb of God,” though full of meaning for those familiar with the biblical background in such passages as John 1:29, Isaiah 53:7, and Revelation 5:6ff., does not reveal its richness at first sight.

.

Within a Catholic context/community, profoundly anchored (and catechised) in eucharistic spirituality, I think ICET/ELLC are there almost spouting tosh...... and especially so as the proximate presidential utterance is John 1:29.

[Southern Comfort]

Now come on SC - tropes in general or just the ICET text? Your posts are ambiguous. Let's have a concrete reference please. Quote the text of the permission.

presbyter, you're straining at gnats. The 1971 permission allowed both the ICET text and troped settings of the Agnus Dei, as well as the Apostles' Creed when sung, for that matter.

As for the actual text of the permission, this is alas hidden in the mists of time. Even Martin Foster is apparently unable to produce it, since all the archives from that period have been buried long since in the bowels of Eccleston Square (or elsewhere) and are no longer accessible. It doesn't alter the fact that these permissions were granted and exist. Those with longer memories are able to testify.... You yourself have quoted Music in the Parish Mass for the ICET text.

I presume the new edition of the Missal will include something similar - it seems to me that Canonists may dance on a pinhead to say how all-encompassing it is or needs to be.

The new edition of the Missal may well say something of that nature, but who knows exactly when the Missal itself will appear? It could be a year from now. The issue therefore is this: at this point in time, the texts we are talking about are still permitted, and therefore the approval panel has no basis on which to withhold approval of settings of such texts. When the Missal eventually appears, that situation could of course change.