Lamb of God/Jesus Lamb of God

[Peter]

What we seem to be doing here is mimicking adolescents as we try to discover where the boundaries are and how far we can push against them, despite the wish of those who "would be our servants" that we just put up and shut up.

... or workers who have a job to do with quality standards to meet and need to be clear exactly what those standards are and what flexibility is allowed in implementing them.

[quaeritor]

. I did say "sadly . . . "

Q

[presbyter]

But for the ICET Lamb of God to be forbidden, the Bishops' Conference would need formally to abrogate that text,......

Are our present bishops even aware of the status of the text - i.e. what their predecessors permitted?

When the new translation comes into full use (Advent / early next year - whenever...) will use of the present text be formally abrogated?

[Southern Comfort]

When the new translation comes into full use (Advent / early next year - whenever...) will use of the present text be formally abrogated?

I don't think this happens automatically. A deliberate juridical act needs to take place for formal abrogation to occur, and this would require a decision of the Bishops' Conference in session.

[presbyter]

I don't think this happens automatically.

Correct

A deliberate juridical act needs to take place for formal abrogation to occur, and this would require a decision of the Bishops' Conference in session.

Or a deliberate juridical act of the Supreme Pontiff.

Now...... shall I put on an occasional celebration of the Use of Sarum? That's never been abrogated and I do not need episcopal permission so to do. Mind you, I couldn't cope with so many deacons, so perhaps not.

[Southern Comfort]

. . and just for info (genuine ignorance here) - who are/were the "National Liturgical Commission" and the "Liturgy Committee of the Conference" - are/were they one and the same?

Q

The National Liturgical Commission was set up in the 1960s to fulfil the provisions of Sacrosanctum Concilium 44. It supervised the implementation of the postconciliar liturgical reforms in England and Wales. It spawned the National Music Commission which oversaw the early Mass settings from 1965 to 1970.

I am away from home currently, so do not have any references to hand with dates and suchlike, but in the fullness of time the NLC was reorganised to reabsorb the NMC — this was in the early 1970s.

When the Bishops' Conference was reorganised in the wake of the document In the House of the Living God, all existing commissions were disbanded, and one of the departments set up was the Department for Christian Life and Worship. It had a Liturgy and Pastoral Rites Committee, a Music Committee and an Art & Architecture Committee. Subsequently this structure too disappeared, to be replaced by the present Liturgy Committee, which has subcommittees for Liturgical Formation, Patrimony, and Spirituality. The Liturgy Office serves all of these.

Hope I've remembered all of this correctly.

[Nick Baty]

One of the great loopholes here (and please excuse the rest of this: it's Friday evening and I'm on the fourth scotch) is that if you want to publish the new translation, then your setting must be checked by the bishops' Permission to Publish Panel. Fair enough. But if you want to publish some vague paraphrase then you don't. So Israeli, Swedish, Geordie "Mass" will continued. Also, if you want to publish an ICET Agnus Dei then, again, you avoid the PPP and go straight to ICET. Or do I have that wrong?

Oh, it's all too much. I need another drink!

[quaeritor]

A deliberate juridical act needs to take place for formal abrogation to occur, and this would require a decision of the Bishops' Conference in session.

Love it! Just love it!! (Desperately seeking a smiley for"unholy glee"). Where are you, alan29, when I need you?

shall I put on an occasional celebration of the Use of Sarum? That's never been abrogated and I do not need episcopal permission so to do.

My cup runneth over - this thread gets better and better!
(Actually, I'd really like to know more about the Sarum rite and its position, historically and currently, but I doubt if you were really being serious, Presbyter.)

Q

[musicus]

Back in the 70s when I was a student in York I attended a Mass at All Saints' Church in North Street, which (if memory serves) was celebrated according to the Sarum Rite and sung to 14th century English music. I don't remember much about it, to be honest. (All Saints' is CofE, by the way.)

I'm sure they didn't use the ICET Lamb of God, though.*

* Did you notice that skilful swerve back to the topic?

[Nick Baty]

* Did you notice that skilful swerve back to the topic?

I was mightily impressed!

[presbyter]

I attended a Mass at All Saints' Church in North Street, which (if memory serves) was celebrated according to the Sarum Rite and sung to 14th century English music. I don't remember much about it, to be honest. (All Saints' is CofE, by the way.)

All the celebration in Latin? If so, how did the minister get permission?

[Nick Baty]

It was CofE. Therefore much less prescribed.

[musicus]

Nick is correct. I don't suppose they even asked. (Also, as the old saying has it, it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to seek permission.)

[presbyter]

Also, as the old saying has it, it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to seek permission.

Well there's one approach to the continuing use of the ICET Lamb of God text then!

[HallamPhil]

I can recall a Sarum Rite celebration at Sheffield Anglican Cathedral a few years back. The visiting choir were excellent but the only other thing that I remember was that it lasted 3 hours and that the anglican clergy were unavailable for a week beforehand. Presumably they were practising their choreography! I believe they also had embrk on aerobic traing to build up some muscle to cope(no pun intended) with the weight of the vestments.