docmattc wrote:But let's not loose sight of what purpose of the 'nameless committee' should really be:
Southern Comfort wrote:That's what this is really about: making sure that composers do not unwittingly stray from Church doctrine in their adaptations.
Because ICEL does not hold copyright on a text does not leave us free to do what we like with it in Catholic liturgy. And whether or not its published elsewhere for other denominations is not really relevant to the discussion here.
Of course we are not free to do what we like, but equally publishers may publish a multi-use setting, aimed at two different denominations simultaneously. Members of the two denominations are then able to choose how which parts of a setting they can legitimately use. That is the point at issue: can the Hosannas be printed? Yes they can, but Catholics are not supposed to use them, whereas Anglicans can and will.
HallamPhil wrote:...........is equally the case for all the penitential rites texts?
Do we have approved Rite III texts yet, apart from "You were sent to heal the contrite of heart......" ? It was not in ICEL's remit to produce new Rite III texts but the possibility of retaining/adapting something of what we have at the moment is there in a lapidary statement in the Latin Missal of 2002 (which is not to hand - or I would quote).
A much more interesting conundrum is whether settings of the Gloria with refrains will be allowed. Given the difficulty of this text, I would think the nameless committee would be ill-advised to say No. In any case, refrains are not a deviation from the official text, merely repetition (thanks, HallamPhil!) of a small portion of it.
Last edited by Southern Comfort on Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
HallamPhil wrote:...........is equally the case for all the penitential rites texts?
Do we have approved Rite III texts yet, apart from "You were sent to heal the contrite of heart......" ? It was not in ICEL's remit to produce new Rite III texts but the possibility of retaining/adapting something of what we have at the moment is there in a lapidary statement in the Latin Missal of 2002 (which is not to hand - or I would quote).
No, Rome has not yet responded to our bishops' request to include in the Missal 17 (I think) alternative sets of invocations for "Rite III". This comes under the heading of national modifications. Others include placing the sprinkling rite in the body of the Order of Mass instead of in an appendix. And we still don't have the National Propers, so the Missal is not yet complete for us.
Southern Comfort wrote:Not really, given that the Anglican users use the Roman Mas....
But will they necessarily switch to the new translation?
Yes, because they are more Roman than Rome. A small proportion of them are coming over via the Ordinariate, but there are plenty more left who have not adopted that process and are staying where they are.
This is all beginning to sound like the situation of 40+ years ago. Perhaps we need to see all the old desktop publishers back in print before the big boys start making more permanent collection. Chiswick, Clifton, Magnificat, etc had a real flexibility and were able to respond quickly and cheaply to what was going on.
Southern Comfort wrote:Yes, because they are more Roman than Rome....
Some, but not all. I'm quite amazed at how many FiF parishes in the Midlands are using a particular setting by... well, modesty forbids. Although FiF is, of course, a long way from the TAC and the TCE.
Nick Baty wrote:This is all beginning to sound like the situation of 40+ years ago. Perhaps we need to see all the old desktop publishers back in print before the big boys start making more permanent collection. Chiswick, Clifton, Magnificat, etc had a real flexibility and were able to respond quickly and cheaply to what was going on.
All imprints will still, as far as I am aware, have to go through the approval process. If they decide to ignore it, ICEL will not issue them with a contract to publish, unless they already have a separate arrangement.
Of course, the process only covers composers wishing to reproduce the new translation. There is still nothing to stop those who make up the words of the Holy of Gloria to fit the tune. Thankfully, we do not have liturgical police, although sometimes I wish we did – with power to shoot on sight!
Southern Comfort wrote:All imprints will still, as far as I am aware, have to go through the approval process. If they decide to ignore it, ICEL will not issue them with a contract to publish, unless they already have a separate arrangement.
Apologies, SC, I probably confused the issue. What I meant was that as the Missal is far from finished – Pen Rite III being a case – then the larger companies preparing more permanent collections might find themselves stuck rather early on.
Southern Comfort wrote:A much more interesting conundrum is whether settings of the Gloria with refrains will be allowed.
LOL - if refrains are not allowed and we get stuck with ICEL's adaptation of Gloria XV, I think God (and his people) will get very bored, very quickly.
modesty forbids. Although FiF is, of course, a long way from the TAC and the TCE.