Areas of Difficulty

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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presbyter
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by presbyter »

mcb wrote:
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi ought to be a test case. I think an earlier draft of the translation had Lamb of God, who take away the sins of the world, but I think in the most recent version it's dodged the problem by reverting to Lamb of God, you take away....


So why - ICEL/SCDWDS - ease the problem in the Agnus Dei but pepper the proper prayers with it? Should there not be a consistent house style?

(Doubtless they will come back at me and remind me I've been praying "Our Father, who art in heaven...." quite happily for decades)
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by presbyter »

How would readers feel about praying "Our Father, who are in heaven..." ? "Our Father, you who are in heaven....."? Is the Lord's Prayer the paradigm for these propers? - such as O God, who have made this most sacred night But doesn't O God, who hast made this most sacred night make more immediate sense? (Not that Cranmer - on a quick look in BCP - liked this construction - he's a "thou hast" person)

Bring back the second person singular verbal forms? (Not that these have disappeared entirely from common speech in God's own county, from where I originate - :wink: )
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by musicus »

Pray Tell cites this interesting blog post: http://clayboy.co.uk/2010/11/the-new-ma ... oes-wrong/
Quite perceptive, I think.
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by mcb »

musicus wrote:Quite perceptive, I think.

Agreed! Best of all is Why not go the whole Yoda-esque hog? :-) Isn't English wonderful?
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by docmattc »

English, wonderful not, it is?
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by presbyter »

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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by alan29 »

Is it a cup, is it a chalice.
"graciously accept this oblation of our service," ...... what's one of those? I'm not sure we have one in our parish. Does it come in different colours/shapes/keys? Will we get one from the bishop every Holy Thursday?
And should we honestly "dare " to call God our Father when we have it on the highest authority that this is exactly how we should be addressing him.
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by musicus »

Yes. 'Fraid so. :(
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

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Does anyone know why this site does not identify itself validly to Firefox? Is it dangerous? Why does it use a secure protocol?
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by nazard »

Try this link. It seems to work as an ordinary connection.

http://wikispooks.com/wiki/File:2010_Order_of_Mass_Final_UK.pdf
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by contrabordun »

I particularly liked this comment:
(This is the FINAL FINAL FINAL Order of Mass, except for a few changes we might make.)
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by John Ainslie »

To get some handle on this sorry business, here is an excerpt from the preface by Kevin Seasoltz OSB to Peter Jeffery's critique of Liturgiam Authenticam, Translating Tradition.

On October 11, 1972, Cardinal Medina, Cardinal Ratzinger and six other members of the International Theological Commission wrote to Poper Paul VI to express their urgent concern that the unity and purity of the Catholic faith were being severely compromised by the inaccurate and theologically suspect translations of liturgical texts from Latin into the vernacular languages. They complained that the Congregation for Divine Worship was unwisely relying on local bishops' conferences to judge the quality of translated texts rather than examining them carefully in Rome.

Cardinal Medina was appointed prefect of the CDW in February 1998 and Liturgiam Authenticam appeared in March 2001. And we know what happened to Cardinal Ratzinger...

You can therefore expect little sympathy from the Pope or from the CDW. The 'Areas of Difficulty' document is the best that could have been hoped for to shame the CDW's interference.

However, here is a paragraph of the said Liturgicam Authenticam:

104. For the good of the faithful, the Holy See reserves to itself the right to prepare translations in any language, and to approve them for liturgical use.

Nevertheless, even if the Apostolic See, by means of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, may intervene from time to time out of necessity in the preparation of translations, it still belongs to the competent Conference of Bishops to approve their assumption into liturgical use within the boundaries of a given ecclesiastical territory, unless otherwise explicitly indicated in the decree of approbation of the translation promulgated by the Apostolic See. Afterwards, for the purpose of obtaining the recognitio of the Holy See, the Conference shall transmit the decree of approbation for its territory together with the text itself, in accordance with the norms of this Instruction and of the other requirements of the law.

The German bishops, faced with an unacceptable version of their Rite of Christian Funerals from the CDW, simply declined to implement it. Will our bishops have the chutzpah to do likewise? (Note that it belongs to the bishops, not ICEL, to decide.)
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by presbyter »

John Ainslie wrote:
However, here is a paragraph of the said Liturgicam Authenticam:

104. For the good of the faithful,............


I cannot see how rendering orthodoxy in a linguistically unorthodox and obscure manner -promotes "the good of the faithful". Yet I doubt if the successors of the Apostles today will have that Pauline chutzpah (cf Gal 1:11) to stand up to "Peter" and say LA is flawed in some of its principles.
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Re: Areas of Difficulty

Post by John Ainslie »

Most attention has been given to the changes to the Missal prayers, but I have just taken a look at a few of the antiphons. Here is what we have for last Sunday, the First of Advent:

Ad te levavi animam meam, Deus meus, in te confido, non erubescam. Neque irrideant me inimici mei, etenim universi qui te exspectant non confundentur.

ICEL:
To you, my God, I have lifted my soul.
In you I trust, I shall not be put to shame.
Let not my enemies mock me,
for no one who waits for you
will be put to shame.

CDW (with punctuation as printed):
To you, I lift up my soul, O my God.
In you, I have trusted; let me not be put to shame.
Nor let not my enemies exult over me;
and let none who hope in you be put to shame.

Yes, it actually says 'nor let not...'. And they expect composers to set this to music? O my God!
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