Areas of Difficulty

[musicus]

Our PP is on the second session of his course today.

Could I sneak in a plug for my own ten-week course on 'A History of the 21st Century', which begins this week?

[docmattc]

The whole of the 'presentation text' is now on wikispooks. This may or may not be the final text which the US are geting, which in turn may or may not be the text we are getting. The 'Pray Tell' blog points out that the faithful are instructed to stand "holding lighted candies in their hands" for the easter exsultet.

This raises an interesting question for the UK: will our text substitute "sweets" for "candies"? And how does one ignite a Werther's original?

[presbyter]

The whole of the 'presentation text' is now on wikispooks.

Do you have a link doc?

[presbyter]

I've found it:

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/File:Moroney_Missal_1.pdf

pdf number 9 is the Order of Mass

First things I've noticed is that "May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life" is back. What's happened to "and lead us, with our sins forgiven, to eternal life", I wonder?

[alan29]

Inter alia I find myself wondering why, with the Our Father kept in its traditional translation the opportunity wasn't taken to revert to the traditional form of its doxology .... "For the kingdom, the Power etc."

[Southern Comfort]

First things I've noticed is that "May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life" is back. What's happened to "and lead us, with our sins forgiven, to eternal life", I wonder?

It was changed back in August to what we use now. The doxology at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer also changed (not back, but to something different again). The result of both of these has been some re-engraving, reprinting and re-recording by US publishers in the case of mass settings that set these texts, at considerable expense to them. The Become One Body, One Spirit In Christ DVD also had to be adjusted to take these (and other) changes into account — unfortunately the adjustments were not always done well and in some cases proved impossible because of interviews with contributors recorded many months previously on the basis of what the texts were at that point.

[alan29]

First things I've noticed is that "May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins and bring us to everlasting life" is back. What's happened to "and lead us, with our sins forgiven, to eternal life", I wonder?

It was changed back in August to what we use now. The doxology at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer also changed (not back, but to something different again). The result of both of these has been some re-engraving, reprinting and re-recording by US publishers in the case of mass settings that set these texts, at considerable expense to them. The Become One Body, One Spirit In Christ DVD also had to be adjusted to take these (and other) changes into account — unfortunately the adjustments were not always done well and in some cases proved impossible because of interviews with contributors recorded many months previously on the basis of what the texts were at that point.

Its as though the church's liturgy is somebodys plaything.

[Southern Comfort]

Its as though the church's liturgy is somebodys plaything.

Other blogs discussing this term it an abuse of power, which it certainly is. I would add that it is grossly disrespectful of bishops' conferences.

[nazard]

Would someone please explain the difference between an abuse of power and a continuing process of optimising the translation?

Optimising anything without an quantitative metric is always going to be very subjective, and stands a good chance of upsetting a proportion of the population.

[alan29]

Would someone please explain the difference between an abuse of power and a continuing process of optimising the translation?

Optimising anything without an quantitative metric is always going to be very subjective, and stands a good chance of upsetting a proportion of the population.

I think that consultation has to be there somewhere if the impression of railroading one particular view of the English language is to be avoided.
I still day-dream of a translation where the English that is used is worthy of worship and not the mis-begotten "love child" of cod-archaism and a fixation on Latin syntax. These are texts for worship, not magic spells!

[nazard]

I like the idea of consultation, but I don't recollect it ever happening in the past. I'm not sure it would be practical to consult any large number of people. I am pleased with the way the tridentine mass is being handled at the moment, with a just set it free and see where it goes approach. It would have been interesting to see if the new mass would ever have got away on that basis.

We seem to be in the process of replacing gross errors by gross awkwardness. To God all things are possible, so it may all get sorted.

[quaeritor]

Optimising anything without an quantitative metric is always going to be very subjective, and stands a good chance of upsetting a proportion of the population.

Wow! - some sentence, Nazard! - I wish I'd written that. I promise not to be upset if you really talk down to me and tell me what the heck it actually means

Just asking.

[nazard]

...
Wow! - some sentence, Nazard...

Sorry, I lapsed into scientific language there. I am guilty of using words like that in my everyday work, and I got a bit carried away. Try this for an everyday english translation:

"Getting anything into its best possible form without some way of putting a measured number to it is always going to rely on the judgement and taste of individuals. Since individuals have different tastes, it is likely that some groups of people will disagree and be upset by what has been chosen."

As a simple example, if you want to find the best beer, it is easy if your criterion is that you want the most alcohol. Any half decent chemist can measure how much alcohol there is in beer, and put a number to it. This is called a quantitative measure. On the other hand, if you want the best tasting beer, you have to rely on judgement, and so the arguments begin.

It turns out that the sentence I wrote illustrates the problem of the translators very nicely. They have a very difficult job to do, and I would like people to be more charitable towards them. They have at least two criteria to meet,

(1) To accurately translate a text which they have been given, and have no control over.

(2) To produce English which conveys the impression that we take the matter of sacrificing to the eternal and all powerful God seriously.

Their problems are compounded by the knowledge that change upsets people.

[contrabordun]

Of course, even if you have a quantitative metric, you may still have made a subjective judgement in selecting that metric.

[mcb]

(2) To produce English which conveys the impression that we take the matter of sacrificing to the eternal and all powerful God seriously.

I think this is perhaps a rather limited ambition for translating the Missal. EU regulations regarding fishing quotas are drafted, no doubt, with the intention of conveying a seriousness of purpose. But that doesn't make them a worthy vehicle for public proclamation or inner contemplation.

The Missal translation needs to be a vehicle for people to assent to and express their faith with sincerity and joy, and for this it needs to use language which is genuinely theirs. Obfuscating vocabulary and a quasi-fetishistic preoccupation with Latin syntax are likely to impede this rather than promote it.