I'll sing a hymn to Mary
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presbyter
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Re: latria and dulia
Canonico wrote:Presbyter, perhaps it might be true to say that the late George Patrick and mediaeval practices were not incompatible!....
Don't start me on GPD's reading and implementation of the conciliar and post-conciliar documents on the re-ordering of churches now..... but that could be another thread
Canonico is of course right about my grasp of historical dates. As is Dunstan about the codification of existing practice, I guess. 
Perhaps my point would be better made by citing other mediaeval church practices that we could equally well adopt on the basis that we use the Hail Mary at the intercessions because we did in mediaeval times... like married priests, which we had until about 1100 in England (right period this time
)... On reflection, thinking about it, that might just be a good thing! 
There's a fine line between what is tradition (ie what our Faith is founded upon, like Scripture) and what is traditional (ie just because we've always done it that way). The latter can be changed, if we want; the former cannot be. Somewhere in my braincell (overworked and often wrong), there's a part that recalls that the second Vatican Council Fathers struggled with that for a time.
Perhaps my point would be better made by citing other mediaeval church practices that we could equally well adopt on the basis that we use the Hail Mary at the intercessions because we did in mediaeval times... like married priests, which we had until about 1100 in England (right period this time
)... On reflection, thinking about it, that might just be a good thing!
There's a fine line between what is tradition (ie what our Faith is founded upon, like Scripture) and what is traditional (ie just because we've always done it that way). The latter can be changed, if we want; the former cannot be. Somewhere in my braincell (overworked and often wrong), there's a part that recalls that the second Vatican Council Fathers struggled with that for a time.
Benevenio.
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Merseysider
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dunstan wrote:Yes, but the council of Trent only codified the mass, it had been in use for hundred of years before that.
I know I'm going back to Dunstan's submission, but I had to go to our Impact YCW Group since my Curate is on holiday and I so missed sending this earlier. (Is that too much information?)
The Paul VI promulgated Mass (do we call it the Pauline Mass or maybe the Vatican II Mass?) as we celebrate it now is really only the Tridentine Mass messed about with and celebrated in multivarious languages. (Discuss!)
dunstan wrote:Yes, but the council of Trent only codified the mass, it had been in use for hundred of years before that.
Well, yes and no. The Council ordered the creation of a standard missal for use by all Roman Catholics under the bull Qui primum of Pope Pius V. Unless a diocese or religious order could prove 200 years of unbroken use (eg Ambrosian, mozarabic) it was obliged to use the 1570 missale romanum. This missal primarily drew on the Missal used by the Roman Curia prior to the council. All other local variations or differences to this new missal were discarded, thus it would not be accurate to say that Trent only codified a Mass that had been in use for hundreds of year before that.
Chris
Gwyn wrote:Am I right in believing that apart form Gloria in Excelsis hymns are a relatively new addition to the mass music repertoir? I know they were sung at devotions but I seem to recall reading/hearing somewhere that mertical hymns were not usual at Mass.
Can someone clue me up?
Yes, hymns in the Roman rite Mass does not really have a long history. Their original use in the Roman rite was in the daily office, think for example of the hymns of Ambrose. The use of hymns in the eucharistic liturgy could be atributed to Martin Luther, who saw them as a way of enabling congregational particapation. The Anglican communion has likewise become synonomous with the use of the metrical hymn. As you correctly noted hymns were often sung at devotional services, and also at the beggining and end (technically before and after) of the (so called) Tridentine Mass. The liturgical leap from latin to the vernacular left RC's without much repertiore so thus began the wholesale borrowing, particuarly form the Anglican hymn repertory - a situation that has increased with the close ecumenical ties.
Your second question as to whether metrical hymns are suitable at Mass - well, i think it would be fair to say that litrurgists are divided on that question. Whilst some would advocate a wholesale yes or no, many would consider which part of the Mass we are refering to before advancing an opinion. Let us consider for example the Opening/ Entrance/ gathering Hymn/ Song (delete as appropiate!) Some would suggest that a metrical hymn sung by all would embody the spirit of the GIRM which notes that one of the functions is to gather/ focus all those present into the celebration. However, this is also a 'physical action' moment with a procession of ministers taking place, so perhaps it would be better to sing a chant/ song with the traditional verse/ refrain/ verse format? I think we could all agree that singing a metrical hymn and singing only two verse cause the priest arrived at his chair is definately not what we want... quid?