Unsuitable sentiments in hymns

[Hare]

In a bid to be "Child Friendly" (see another new topic) I programmed CFE 61 "Autumn days..." for a forthcoming Sunday. My choir were horrified and virtually refused to sing it at practise last night, partly because they hated it, but mainly because of something that had not occurred to me - namely the line "Jet planes meeting in the air to be refuelled.........." on the grounds that only "war planes" are refuelled this way and we shouldn't sing about that........ Views please - plus any other questionable sentiments in any hymns....

[VML]

Plus of course, 'and a win for my home team...' And nowhere does it suggest to Whom we are saying the 'great big thank you.'
This is distinctly children's stuff. It is, I suppose, intended to awaken wonder in nature and the world around us, counting blessings etc, but some of the images are rather crass.

[Hare]

And nowhere does it suggest to Whom we are saying the 'great big thank you.'
.

A good point

[docmattc]

"Jet planes meeting in the air to be refuelled.........."

I'm sure I could count on the fingers of one foot the number of children who have seen jet planes meeting in the air to be refuelled!

Only a few more are likely to have seen a milkman (he gets a walk on part in v2)

Other unsuitable sentiments- there's a John Bell piece that talks of Jesus being born into a "Godless gloom", thereby wiping out several thousand years of salvation history.

[Peter]

'Fraid I'm with your choir on this one, Hare! The tune of CFE61 is not particularly obvious or easily pick-uppable and the words come across to me as contrived and patronising rather than genuinely child-friendly - a bit like an old fogey trying to ingratiate himself with teenagers by trying to talk their talk and show that he, like, really digs their scene, man.

The only thing in its favour is that the "thank-you" theme relates to the Gospel of the Ten Lepers in a few weeks' time, which is presumably the "forthcoming Sunday" referred to. However, there are better such songs around, including from within our own Composers' Group. A few years ago at Summer School, Martin Barry and Mary Rouse produced a very catchy little thank-you song for children and more recently Jane Upcott brought a song to a CG meeting of which IIRC the words had been written by a child and so had a genuine child-like quality lacking in Estelle White's artificial effort.

Even so, songs like this belong more in Children's Liturgy than at a congregational Mass, where the danger is that they will fall flat: the adults won't sing them, either because they are embarrassed to do so or, more likely, they simply do not know them; the children won't sing because they feel shy doing so if the adults aren't joining in.

Turning to the more general question: a couple of months ago my then PP took me to task for picking Ruth Duck's "As a fire is meant for burning" (Laudate 828) because he disagreed with the line "not to preach our creeds and customs" - and then went on to preach a homily in which he stressed the importance of spreading the Gospel by living out its message rather than through theological arguments.

Ans what about some Communion hymns? Do we, for example, reject "We have gathered round your table, laid with wine and living bread" (no 639 in Laudate's "Communion thanksgiving songs" section) or the Taizé chant "Eat this bread" on the grounds that at that point of the Mass the elements have been consecrated? In defence of these items and others like them, Eucharistic Prayer II refers, after the Consecration, to "this life-giving bread" and the fraction rite before Communion is headed in the Missal "Breaking of Bread".

[Hare]

'Fraid I'm with your choir on this one, Hare! The tune of CFE61 is not particularly obvious or easily pick-uppable and the words come across to me as contrived and patronising rather than genuinely child-friendly - a bit like an old fogey trying to ingratiate himself with teenagers by trying to talk their talk and show that he, like, really digs their scene, man.

The only thing in its favour is that the "thank-you" theme relates to the Gospel of the Ten Lepers in a few weeks' time, which is presumably the "forthcoming Sunday" referred to. However, there are better such songs around, including from within our own Composers' Group. A few years ago at Summer School, Martin Barry and Mary Rouse produced a very catchy little thank-you song for children and more recently Jane Upcott brought a song to a CG meeting of which IIRC the words had been written by a child and so had a genuine child-like quality lacking in Estelle White's artificial effort.

Even so, songs like this belong more in Children's Liturgy than at a congregational Mass, where the danger is that they will fall flat: the adults won't sing them, either because they are embarrassed to do so or, more likely, they simply do not know them; the children won't sing because they feel shy doing so if the adults aren't joining in.

Turning to the more general question: a couple of months ago my then PP took me to task for picking Ruth Duck's "As a fire is meant for burning" (Laudate 828) because he disagreed with the line "not to preach our creeds and customs" - and then went on to preach a homily in which he stressed the importance of spreading the Gospel by living out its message rather than through theological arguments.

Ans what about some Communion hymns? Do we, for example, reject "We have gathered round your table, laid with wine and living bread" (no 639 in Laudate's "Communion thanksgiving songs" section) or the Taizé chant "Eat this bread" on the grounds that at that point of the Mass the elements have been consecrated? In defence of these items and others like them, Eucharistic Prayer II refers, after the Consecration, to "this life-giving bread" and the fraction rite before Communion is headed in the Missal "Breaking of Bread".

Thank you - all very valid points. I shall be pointing out the defects of "Autumn days" at the state primary school where I play for assembly and it is trotted out at least once a week in september & October.

I suppose I must accept that, despite what a number of people say it is perhaps not my choice of music that is "driving families away from the church"
(On which subject, a 13 year-old boy in my choir moans if we DON'T sing Credo III, and the most confident soprano in Maurice Green's "Thou visitest the earth" is an 11 year-old girl!

[gwyn]

a 13 year-old boy in my choir moans if we DON'T sing Credo III, and the most confident soprano in Maurice Green's "Thou visitest the earth" is an 11 year-old girl!

Speaks volumes.

[mcb]

a very catchy little thank-you song for children

Thanks, Peter. Here it is, if it's of use to anyone. Feel free to copy it, and you'll see from the performance direction that you're encouraged to make up your own verses too.

[Hare]

A couple of other lines that trouble me:

"Bread and wine to be transformed now through the action of thy priest" Is it not through the action of the Holy Spirit?

And

"Remind thy Son that he has paid the price of our iniquity" Why remind him? Is he likely to have forgotten? Is there scriptural/doctrinal precedent for this line?

[Mithras]

It is the Holy Spirit working through the action of the priest that the transformation is effected so I think that line is sound.

I always chuckled though at the idea that Our Lady has to remind Jesus what he has done. "Oh by the way, Jesus my dear, before you get too busy today on your communion rounds don't forget what happened a couple of thousand years ago will you? They'd be a bit upset it you did!"

But the one that gets me is "and when I think....sent him to die...."! (O Lord my God). I've mentioned this one before here and I still think it should be banned.

Mithras