Collaboration and Communication

[Dot]

Presbyter said:

Look, I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude - and I know I've done this to Benevenio recently too ............ and I also know this is not a seminary tutorial ........... but please folks, if we are going to use phrases such as "what the documents say" can we please, please give the reference ......... because if we bother to read the documents, we might find that they say something completely different to what we think they say. Sorry Dot but I don't know what you are talking about above.

In that case, allow me to revise my previous message to "what I am constantly reminded we should be doing" viz. including the whole assembly in the singing of certain parts of the Mass. I am often reminded of my initial reticence at joining this Forum and try to avoid becoming embroiled in the

'yah-boo-sucks' school of discussion

I would quote the wrong part of the wrong document and receive correction in public: that's not why I come on here.

Dot (cowering)

I come on here for the kind of dialogue we have just been engaging in, as Gabriel described above. Communication and collaboration with the assembly - that's what it's been about, and I have already thanked contributors for what has been a very supportive dialogue.

[Merseysider]

And that, Dot, is communication and that's why we love you!

[Dot]

Merseysider said:

Depends how you do it. Can you smile covinvingly. Years ago I'd have tried to do this from up front with a mic. Not now. Perhaps it was my years as a teacher, learning how to enthuse the most unwilling pupil. The correct sort of eye contact lets people know that you're human, that you're talking to them too, that you're inviting them, that you're not some sort of pro "up front" but a part of the worshipping community.

I think they know I'm human, and very fallible. I have to go to the mic to be heard all round the church; I'm feeble, it's a difficult acoustic, and they're on three sides of me. But I would like to take a place amongst them at times when everyone is intended to be singing during the service.

[presbyter]

Communication and collaboration with the assembly - that's what it's been about.....

All right - but to what end - for what purpose? Nobody in this discussion so far has convinced me they know the fundamental theological, pastoral underpinning of this whole collaborative exercise. (Which - bless you TT - is why we need adult formation.)

What are we doing it for?

[Canonico]

What are we doing it for?

Surely there is only one answer to that:
Ad maioram dei gloriam

[presbyter]

What are we doing it for?

Surely there is only one answer to that:
Ad maioram dei gloriam

Well I can't disagree with that but I think it's only half the answer (as far as the liturgy is concerned see para 10 and 14 of the Constitution).

[Canonico]

Well I can't disagree with that but I think it's only half the answer (as far as the liturgy is concerned see para 10 and 14 of the Constitution).

Good point, Presbyter - point taken.
"Full, conscious and active participation" (para 14) is necessary if God is to be glorified and the faithful are to become "one in holiness" (para 10).
An interesting ending to para 14 which can make us all pause for thought:
"It would be futile to entertain any hope of realizing this unless pastors of souls, in the first place, themselves become fully imbued with the spirit and power of the liturgy and capable of giving instructions about it. Thus, it is absolutely essectial, first of all, that steps be taken to ensure the liturgical training of the clergy."
At the end of the day I think it means that however much heat and light is being produced then it has to be more than shared ignorance on all sides.
Perhaps not only Summer Schools but Spring, Autumn and Winter schools may be needed.

[Dot]

"Good morning, everybody. We're here this morning for the glorification of God and the sanctification of his people."
This is me smiling covinvingly (sorry, M, couldn't resist)

[Sonoqui]

"Good morning, everybody. We're here this morning for the glorification of God and the sanctification of his people."

Well, that might grab their attention and put an end to the pre-Mass partying! Go for it!

[Benevenio]

that steps be taken to ensure the liturgical training of the clergy

After having described Christian formation as "a continual process in the individual of maturation in faith and a likening to Christ, according to the will of the Father, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit", [the Synod Fathers] have clearly affirmed that the formation of the lay faithful must be placed among the priorities of a diocese. It ought to be so placed within the plan of pastoral action that the efforts of the whole community (clergy, lay faithful and religious) converge on this goal".

Yes please - all of us need formation!

[Tsume Tsuyu]

(Which - bless you TT - is why we need adult formation.)

Yes please - all of us need formation!

So, how do we get it then? Could we maybe forward a link to this thread to our respective Archbishops? So far, the only formation I've received has been from Summer Schools and from this forum and I must confess that what goes on here gallops away from me from time to time!

TT.

[Canonico]

In the cold light of morning (Good morning Dot!) and corrected privately by mcb I notice that 'maioram' (as in 'maioram Dei gloriam') should be spelt 'maiorem'.
My excuse is that my spell-check doesn't do Latin!

[Merseysider]

Nobody in this discussion so far has convinced me they know the fundamental theological, pastoral underpinning of this whole collaborative exercise. (Which - bless you TT - is why we need adult formation.)

Once spent a day listening to Archbishop Derek Worlock talking about Collaborative Ministry and came away none the wiser.

I do know that, in my parish, people accept me as some sort of leader. I'm convinced it's because I'm single, "up front", a bloke and I almost always wear black (because it's incredibly slimming). First time I led Evening Prayer someone came up and said "Wish we could have that every night". I explained that she could until I realised that what she meant was "Please organise it for us every night".

Another time someone overheard me discussing our choir retreat in a rather beautiful setting in North Wales and said: "Will you organise one for us too?" Again, I explained all she needed was a phone number for the venue and for the coach company and she looked at me blankly.

On a third occasion, several of the women who live alone asked me if it would be possible to organise some sort of afternoon club. I said all they needed was a key for the parish centre and packet of teabags – again blank looks.

I'm working in a wonderful community where people turn up for anything and everything in their droves but ask them to organise anything... The former PP did everything for them, literally spoon-fed them.

I'm not sure about formation right now. What they need first is to realise that this is their Church/church and that they don't need permission to pray in it, to socialise in it etc.

But back to this bloke-up-front thing... Not sure how it happens but people come to talk to me about all sorts of things which I'm not in a position to help them with. Again, it's because they see me as some sort of leader and they think that, because I know a bit about music in the liturgy, that I know everything about the Church and its teaching – and I definitely don't. And it's making me wonder more and more if those of us in lay ministry actually need a bit of pastoral theology.

I know what I'd say to someone who's fallen foul of the Church's teaching on marriage. But, as a visible leader, I feel I should be a tad more orthodox.

Getting myself in knots here – what was I trying to say?

[Canonico]

Getting myself in knots here – what was I trying to say?

I think I know exactly what you mean Merseysider. Same thing happens to clergy who are expected to, as you say, 'spoonfeed' people even if they don't possess the particular charism needed.
From my own practical experience I would say a number of things:
1. Start from where you are. If people 'can't do it' then find a way to do at least something together. Formation, like grace, begins long before we are approached. The approach itself is proof that grace is working and so we can build on it.
2. Your problem, if I preceive it correctly, is that you are a lay person who feels that he may be 'slapped down' if he tries to innovate something. Again, as a priest, I understand that only too well from all angles. You are right, people do need to feel they have 'permission' to do things and to feel 'ownership' of their parish. That is what communication among all people in the parish (and those who come to worship from outside the parish) is about.
3. Speak to the parish priest. There are those who for multivarious reasons feel they cannot. They possibly approach you as a way of reaching what they see as 'authority'. It's a long process, but when a few people have got the idea they will learn. I know that from experience.
4. If I, as a parish priest, tried to organise and be totally involved in all the things that happen in the parish then I would be more insane than I already am. Neither do I possess the 'charisms' required to do everything. If the spiritual, social and charitable elements of a parish rely on the 'charisms' of the parish priest alone then it is an impoverished parish. Sometimes (more often than you might think!) the parish priest is waiting for someone to come along with the right qualities to lead a particular group or activity within the parish. What he needs to be encouraged to do is give 'permission' and encourage 'participation'. It sometimes needs a nudge from someone to set the ball rolling!
5. Don't give up; your own involvement is obviously setting questions up in people's minds and giving them a hunger for participation, even if they don't always express it in those terms.
I hope this hasn't confused you even more, but what I have said does come from long experience.

[Merseysider]

Your problem, if I preceive it correctly, is that you are a lay person who feels that he may be 'slapped down' if he tries to innovate something.

Actually, it's almost the other way around: that people are looking to me in a way I think they shouldn't. They are used to Men In Black doing things for them. And because I'm one of the few lay people doing things, they perceive me to be one of the guys. Not expressing this well.