Feasts that displace the Sunday Mass

[presbyter]

Ecclesia supplet does not remedy those cases wherein innocent persons bore the consequences of ministers making invalidating changes in sacramental form.

Perhaps one should go beyond the restrictions of Ecclesia supplet in this case to the principle of Deus providet ?

[musicus]

Sorry, musicus, I'm off topic, but interesting, eh?

Yes to both, John

[FrGareth]

Here's a simple uncontroversial one - does anyone have a complete list of feasts that supersede the Sunday Mass if they fall on the Sunday - or is it if they fall within one day of the Sunday? (Yes, I know that I am just idle, but . . . )

Thanks.

Q

On a technicality,

FEASTS which supersede Sunday are those classed as FEASTS OF THE LORD

Presentation of the Lord February 2
Transfiguration of the Lord August 6
Exaltation of the Holy Cross September 14
Dedication of the Lateran Basilica November 9

SOLEMNITIES also outclass Sundays (except in Lent, Eastertide and Advent)

The Anniversary of the Dedication of your church
The Titular Saint of your church
Principal Patron of the religious order, if your church is staffed by a religious order

Mary Mother of God January 1
St David's Day (in Wales) March 1 +
The Nativity of Saint John the Baptist June 24
Saints Peter and Paul June 29 *
The Assumption of the Blessed Mother August 15 *
All Saints November 1 *
Nativity of the Lord December 25

Apart from St David, the other patrons of the British Isles (solemnities in their own nation) will inevitably fall in privileged seasons when they cannot displacea Sunday.

* indicates that the day is a Holy Day of Obligation in England & Wales, which if falling on a Saturday or Monday is moved to the Sunday.

+ indicates that the day might fall in Lent, Advent or Eastertide

[FrGareth]

We also had a PP (briefly) a few years ago who was a law unto himself, and one year when All Saints fell on a Friday he took it upon himself to transfer All Souls to the Sunday so that "more people could observe it" Interesting point as to whether the masses were valid, and Sunday obligations fulfilled.......?

Yes and Yes. Celebrating the wrong texts does not invalidate the Mass (validity = transubstantiation taking place) and attending ANY valid Mass between (roughly -it's not exactly defined) 4 pm Saturday and 11.59 p.m. Sunday fulfils your obligation to attend Mass on a Sunday.

Aw c'mon folks - this is the Mass we're talking about - when ever was the Mass "not valid" ?

Invalid mass: 1) My PP tells of a visiting (?) American "Bishop" when he was at Seminary, who said several "masses" and proved to be bogus - not even ordained.

2) "Home-grown" Eucharistic Prayers............?

3) We had a visiting priest who felt unwell and started the Sunday mass at the Offertory. Anyone.............?

Case 1 - obligation was not fulfilled, but those who attended committed no sin because they believed a valid Mass was being offered and had done everything morally possible to fulfil their obligation.

Case 2 - if the prayers contain the usual words of consecration, the Mass would be valid unless the priest had an intention NOT to "do what the church does". If they contained no, or alternative, words of consecration, this would be dubious. ("NO words" is probably invalid, but he might be modelling himself on the Anaphora of Addi and Mari...) It would arguably be a sin against the unity of the church to deliberately attend this Mass rather than another for the sake of enjoying the radical words, though.

Case 3 - Illicit, but valid.

FrGareth

[contrabordun]

attending ANY valid Mass between (roughly -it's not exactly defined) 4 pm Saturday and 11.59 p.m. Sunday fulfils your obligation to attend Mass on a Sunday.

Presumably, unless the Saturday in question is 25th December? (not that I've ever heard of an evening mass on that day)

[FrGareth]

[itchen]

[FrGareth]

attending ANY valid Mass between (roughly -it's not exactly defined) 4 pm Saturday and 11.59 p.m. Sunday fulfils your obligation to attend Mass on a Sunday.

Presumably, unless the Saturday in question is 25th December? (not that I've ever heard of an evening mass on that day)

If you have already been to a Christmas Mass on a Sat 25 Dec, you could theoretically attend a late Mass of Christmas Day after 4 pm and thereby fulfil your Sunday obligation. You can't fulfil two obligations by attending one Mass, though.

... just out of interest, does any parish (other than a monastery church) have any kind of public prayer on Christmas Day afternoon?

[Southern Comfort]

... just out of interest, does any parish (other than a monastery church) have any kind of public prayer on Christmas Day afternoon?

I once had to do Vespers in a cathedral on Christmas Day afternoon. No one came — it was just a priest and me. Not really surprising, I think. I remember relishing the Christmas pud after I got home again.

[presbyter]

... just out of interest, does any parish (other than a monastery church) have any kind of public prayer on Christmas Day afternoon?

I think Westminster Cathedral sings Vespers, don't they?

[johnquinn39]

Do we actually have any Sunday Mass feasts at all ever in the RC Church?

- It seems to me that every Sunday is the feast of Our Lady / Young people / Catholic teachers etc.

[Hare]

How does a priest making his own decision over the length of the gospel affect the validity of a mass? We had a Polish supply priest this weekend who stopped short of The Prodigal Son.. And I had selected CFE 587 for the Offertory on the strength of said errant offspring. Grr!

[docmattc]

The shorter form of today's Gospel omits the 2 parables before the prodigal son. It sounds like your supply priest simply misunderstood the markings for omission (A vertical line in the margin in my missal, I don't remember what it is in the lectionary) to be those for inclusion. Validity is in no way affected.

[VML]

We have the Farnworth Mass booklets, and though I don't have it with me now, as far as I can remember, it was marked to show the shorter form of the Gospel stopping short of the prodigal son. So if it was a locum Polish priest, he could perhaps be excused for folowing the available info.

[Hare]

Our Parish Mass Books do not indicate that there is a shorter form of yesterday's Gospel.

When I mentioned it to the priest, he simply said "Oh, it's too long!"

Having chosen the hymn in question (Our Father, we have wandered - to the "Passion Chorale") as it tied in directly with the Prodigal Son, and, in effect it was out of place as we didn't hear that parable, I now have to face the "We Want Jolly Hymns So The Children Will Come To Mass" Brigade and explain the "Passion Chorale"....

[Gabriel]

The Lectionary, as is usually the case, prints the full version and the shorter version separately. One trusts that priests were reading from Lectionary or Book of the Gospels rather than a Missalette