Papal Visit

[johnquinn39]

Is this the one?

Full in the panting heart of Rome
Beneath the apostle's crowning dome.
From pilgrim's lips that kiss the ground,
Breathes in all tongues one only sound:

GOD BLESS OUR POPE, GOD BLESS OUR POPE,
GOD BLESS OUR POPE, THE GREAT THE GOOD!

The golden roof, the marble walls,
The Vatican's majestic halls,
The note redoubles, till it fills
With echoes sweet the seven hills

GOD BLESS OUR POPE, GOD BLESS OUR POPE,
GOD BLESS OUR POPE, THE GREAT THE GOOD!

Then surging through each hallowed gate,
Where martyrs glory, in peace await
It sweeps beyond the solemn plain,
Peals over Alps, across the main.

GOD BLESS OUR POPE, GOD BLESS OUR POPE,
GOD BLESS OUR POPE, THE GREAT THE GOOD!

From torrid south to frozen north,
The wave harmonious stretches forth,
Yet strikes no chord more true to Rome's,
Than rings within our hearts and homes.

GOD BLESS OUR POPE, GOD BLESS OUR POPE,
GOD BLESS OUR POPE, THE GREAT THE GOOD!

Perhaps getting off topic, but does the above have any liturgical function?

[contrabordun]

I'd always assumed it was written by the Italian Tourist Board.

[gwyn]

That's it. There was a dodgy verse about a magic wire which has mercifully been eroded away.

[musicus]

Who thought this was a good idea?: http://www.thepapalvisit.org.uk/pilgrim-cd

Listen to the two specimen mp3 tracks and wonder at how (a) this music and (b) these performances were deemed worthy of this great occasion. I dare the perpetrators to send a review copy to Music and Liturgy - perhaps the rest of the CD is better.

IMNVHBCO, this is the worst kind of amateurism, condescension and poor taste.

I see that the Telegraph blog has espoused similar views.

[JW]

Who thought this was a good idea?: http://www.thepapalvisit.org.uk/pilgrim-cd

Listen to the two specimen mp3 tracks and wonder at how (a) this music and (b) these performances were deemed worthy of this great occasion. I dare the perpetrators to send a review copy to Music and Liturgy - perhaps the rest of the CD is better.

IMNVHBCO, this is the worst kind of amateurism, condescension and poor taste.

I see that the Telegraph blog has espoused similar views.

Unfortunately, I agree - the music and the performances are embarrassing (Apologies, Fr Gerard if you are reading this!). The CD should contain work by professional composers and musicians and recorded by a professional producer, otherwise we risk unfavourable comparisons with other 'gift CD's' or worse. If cost was the issue, I think it would have been better not to produce with the CD. Many of us are quite capable of performing/composing acceptable music for our own churches but not for recording. Would anyone involved like to let us know why this was done and who advised on the CD?

BTW, I have been listening to the Haydn Te Deum whilst penning this reply, as I read that it is to be used at one of the papal liturgies. It seems to me that the Haydn Te Deum is pretty close to the type of theatrical/operatic genre of music that Pius X said was unsuitable for liturgical use in his Motu Proprio, Tra le Sollicitudini. Does Tra le Sollicitudini no longer apply? Are we now able to use Haydn and Mozart Masses in the liturgy? Can anyone throw some light?

[docmattc]

Who thought this was a good idea?: http://www.thepapalvisit.org.uk/pilgrim-cd

Someone very hard of hearing perhaps? Assuming that the clips on the website represent 'the best bits', I can't imagine what the rest might be like.

[gwyn]

Well, if the choice is between the Haydn Te Deum or the like and the contents of that CD, then it's a no-brainer.

[presbyter]

BTW, I have been listening to the Haydn Te Deum whilst penning this reply, as I read that it is to be used at one of the papal liturgies. It seems to me that the Haydn Te Deum is pretty close to the type of theatrical/operatic genre of music that Pius X said was unsuitable for liturgical use in his Motu Proprio, Tra le Sollicitudini. ..........

The Director of Music at the Liturgy you make reference to possesses a copy of the 1903 document and is aware of its contents. He also possesses the current document from Rome - instructions on how to put together a Papal Liturgy. The latter document - quite rightly - requests that the music in the liturgy itself should not become a concert. Hence the Te Deum being used is "extra-liturgical" in that it is not being sung until after the Mass has concluded. There is a concluding hymn (For all the saints...) for everyone to sing before the choral Te Deum - which, by the way, has been chosen for its straightforward setting of the text. There are no passages in this setting for soloists: no hint at all of what might be considered quasi-operatic arias.

[John Ainslie]

He also possesses the current document from Rome - instructions on how to put together a Papal Liturgy. The latter document - quite rightly - requests that the music in the liturgy itself should not become a concert.

Amen to that. I appreciate that confidences have to be respected, but if Papal liturgy is supposed to be a model for liturgies elsewhere - notably cathedrals and episcopal occasions - might one be vouchsafed access to this document?

I am tempted to regard a Te Deum or anything else tacked on to the end of a liturgy as virtually part of it. Is the congregation expected to stay and participate in it (by listening) as an act of worship?

On the same tack, is a recessional organ voluntary a part of the liturgy, whether or not it follows a recessional hymn? And what about the recessional hymn itself, of which the Missal and its General Instruction makes no mention? (It only gets a single casual mention in the 1967 instruction 'Musicam Sacram'.)

[presbyter]

I am tempted to regard a Te Deum or anything else tacked on to the end of a liturgy as virtually part of it. Is the congregation expected to stay and participate in it (by listening) as an act of worship?

I am informed by the Director of Music that listening as an act of worship was indeed was the planners' intention but as the "Pilgrim Booklet" does not seem to have room for producing a parallel Latin and English text for this piece - only the Title of the piece - the aspiration that the Te Deum would become the prayer of the whole assembly (by attentive listening) is somewhat diminished. I understand that the Director of Music for the Beatification Mass is mightily aggrieved at the failure of those responsible for publishing the Pilgrims' Book, to take into account the pastoral nature of this text and its music. Is the ancient prayer of the Te Deum the limited possession of those who pray the Office of Readings or is it a prayer of the Universal Church?

[FrGareth]

Is the ancient prayer of the Te Deum the limited possession of those who pray the Office of Readings or is it a prayer of the Universal Church?

The Te Deum was not a prayer I'd encountered in the nine years between becoming Catholic and entering seminary. I was aware there was a prayer called the Te Deum but in my mind it was just another Latin title alongside De profundis and Dies Irae, of Latin chants that I knew I could look up if I was minded do - and not being a musician or a Latin scholar, didn't.

FrGareth

[JW]

The Papal Visit is an excellent opportunity to learn from current best practice. It's good to see that Haydn (et al) are being rehabilitated - he would have been mortified to learn that his music was destined to be on the old US 'Black List'. Also that the use of a final hymn is good practice - in contrast to what is contained in 'Celebrating the Mass'. I hope to learn more about how this Pope wishes us to conduct our lilturgies when watching the TV coverage of the visits.

[Southern Comfort]

While there may be some aspects of papal liturgies that could qualify as 'best practice', there are many others that could not. You only have to look at the Australian WYD liturgies.....

In the forthcoming celebrations, we will apparently have the somewhat bizarre juxtaposition of a Eucharistic Prayer delivered in Latin, interspersed with acclamations using an English text which (a) has not received formal approval for the countries of the British Isles but only for the USA and (b) will be clothed with unfamiliar music that may not be the most assembly-friendly that could be imagined.

Best practice? Even JPII prayed the EP in English in 1982....

[johnquinn39]

The Papal Visit is an excellent opportunity to learn from current best practice. It's good to see that Haydn (et al) are being rehabilitated - he would have been mortified to learn that his music was destined to be on the old US 'Black List'. Also that the use of a final hymn is good practice - in contrast to what is contained in 'Celebrating the Mass'. I hope to learn more about how this Pope wishes us to conduct our lilturgies when watching the TV coverage of the visits.

JW- You are wrong on all counts, and you are talking utter rubbish.

John

[docmattc]

The Papal Visit is an excellent opportunity to learn from current best practice.

I think we should avoid the trap of automatically assuming that papal liturgies are models of best practice.

For instance, the youth rally with the pope in New York contained the following invocations in the Litany of Saints:

God our Father in heaven. Pray for us
God the Son, our redeemer. Pray for us
God the Holy Spirit. Pray for us
Holy Trinity, one God. Pray for us
I would like to know to whom God was praying.

I'm sure that the Director of Music at Cofton Park is doing his best to ensure best practice, maybe against all kinds of political pressures.

We are in danger of straying off topic.