Matt Maher's Kyrie

[johnquinn39]

This Kyrie was sung at Mass at a parish I was visiting this morning:

http://www.spiritandsong.com/compositions/65154

The priest sang the cantor's part (very well), and the people joined in the response.

I have found little CCM that, in my view, is suitable for parish use, but this worked. It was sung 'straight',
rather than in the glidey / grace-notey 'Christian' stlye.

Does anyone have any views on this item, and of the use of CCM at Mass?

[Southern Comfort]

This Kyrie was sung at Mass at a parish I was visiting this morning:

http://www.spiritandsong.com/compositions/65154

The priest sang the cantor's part (very well), and the people joined in the response.

I have found little CCM that, in my view, is suitable for parish use, but this worked. It was sung 'straight',
rather than in the glidey / grace-notey 'Christian' stlye.

Does anyone have any views on this item, and of the use of CCM at Mass?

I assume CCM stands for Contemporary Christian Music?

Didn't like the recording on the Spirit and Song website much: the soloist can't sing, and certainly doesn't know how to pronounce Kyrie eleison! And the text is addressed to the Father when it should be addressed to the Son (cf. Missal texts for Penitential Rite III, which is the form used by Maher). And the postlude is just filling. (And the website spells "Christe" without the 'h'.)

Perhaps it works differently in parish use.

After that fairly damning critique, I think I'll just shut up!

[Wildcat]

Having listened to this Kyrie, I can see why this particular piece of CCM worked: a lot of the text was ready-made and not centered on the singer's personal mood of the moment, it was responsorial, and a memorable, easily-learned tune. Sung without the contemporary music glides and scoops, it should sound quite good! A little slower, perhaps?
If presented with a "standard" (ie. ordinary, but not particularly favourite) hymn tune, and a piece of CCM, I wonder how the "average" congregation member would vote. Possibly with the CCM, as it's immediately accessible, the text is often intensely personal, it sounds like what is heard on mainstream radio. It all depends if it's well-played, of course!
Personally, I just feel it's like making a meal out of candy floss: lots of cloying stickiness with nothing left at the end except a vague feeling of emptiness. This music usually caters to individualistic worship (MY Jesus, MY experience). If someone wishes to use it for personal prayer, fine; we all have our favourites which no one else would understand. But liturgy seeks to build community, to focus our prayer on God, not on our personal feelings... most of the time. Don't get me wrong: I don't think liturgy is a cold, cerebral exercise; but neither is it a self-indulgent emotional bath.
So, do I think CCM is suitable for Catholic, communal worship. In most cases, no. But there are exceptions, like the present Kyrie.

[docmattc]

Welcome to the forum Wildcat!

[Mithras]

No, this is just self-indulgent liturgical and musical ephemera. Apart from,as has been noted, the confusion of the destination of the petitions, the musical content is weak, serving only as far as I can tell to highlight the cantor's questionable ability to deliver the sense of the Kyrie. Anodyne is perhaps the most polite way I can think of to describe this. Other adjectives may occur.

M

[NorthernTenor]

This thread is so reassuring. Perhaps it's something to do with one of the new national feasts.

Now that the Emperor's nephew has been seen to be short on clothing, might the more immediate family be subject to similar scrutiny?

[johnquinn39]

Didn't like the recording on the Spirit and Song website much: the soloist can't sing, and certainly doesn't know how to pronounce Kyrie eleison! And the text is addressed to the Father when it should be addressed to the Son (cf. Missal texts for Penitential Rite III, which is the form used by Maher). And the postlude is just filling. (And the website spells "Christe" without the 'h'.)

Perhaps it works differently in parish use.

After that fairly damning critique, I think I'll just shut up! Southern Comfort

- Like SC - I disliked the recording. I am no theologian / liturgist, so I plead ignorance about whether the text should have been addressed to the Son. However, as a person in the pew (on holiday today!), I have to say that, in my view, it did indeed work in parish use - and far from being a damning critique, this is high praise.

The mis-spelling of 'Christe' on the website is, with all due respect, not relevant!

I'm not sure if it is fair to say that the soloist on the recording could not sing. But again, with all due respect, this is not relevant.
The soloist this morning at Mass was the parish priest (St. Gregory's, Bollington) Fr. James Mageean SDB. He sang very well indeed, as did the choir and congregation.


John

The postlude on the recording, I agree, is just filling. But again, this is not relavant as, in my view, the song is in 'open' form, and works
without this particular, or any, postlude.

[johnquinn39]

No, this is just self-indulgent liturgical and musical ephemera. Apart from,as has been noted, the confusion of the destination of the petitions, the musical content is weak, serving only as far as I can tell to highlight the cantor's questionable ability to deliver the sense of the Kyrie. Anodyne is perhaps the most polite way I can think of to describe this. Other adjectives may occur.

M

- Yes, this item may (or may not) be ephemeral. (Fr. Lucien Deiss, I think, said that all art is ephemeral). I am not arguing for or against in being a masterpiece. I am not arguing that it should, or should not be used again.

Yet I did not find the phrases 'heal our wounds ... ' - 'make our lives a prayer ... ' or 'guide us ... to heaven ...' in any way self-indulgent. I am no theologian / liturgist, so I have to plead ignorance about whether or not the petitions were confused in their destinations.

The cantor's ability on the recording, as I have said, is not relevant.

The musical content, I thought, was quite strong ,truly dialogical, and very tuneful.

The people joined in, and as we all know it is so hard to get RC's to sing anything 'liturgical'. So I think it would be wrong to ignore this setting.

[johnquinn39]

Sung without the contemporary music glides and scoops, it should sound quite good! A little slower, perhaps?

- You've got it on one Wildcat! (You must have been there this morning).

There were no glides and scoops, it sounded good, and yes, it was performed a little slower than on the recording.

[johnquinn39]

This thread is so reassuring. Perhaps it's something to do with one of the new national feasts.

Now that the Emperor's nephew has been seen to be short on clothing, might the more immediate family be subject to similar scrutiny?

Hello NT!

I started this thread because I came accross what, in my view, was an attractive and prayerful setting of the Kyrie that people actually joined in with!
So perhaps this is reassuring. Perhaps it is no coincidence that it was sung at St. Gregory's.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Emperor's nephew - please explain.

O.K. if we are giving similar scrutiny ... What do people think of the Kyrie of the 'Missa de Angelis'? - I tried this at a parish I worked at a few years ago, and it was not a success.
The PP felt it was overlong and not really a Kyrie. I do not wish to offend, but I find this setting rather meaningless and self-indulgent.

[alan29]

This thread is so reassuring. Perhaps it's something to do with one of the new national feasts.

Now that the Emperor's nephew has been seen to be short on clothing, might the more immediate family be subject to similar scrutiny?

Hello NT!

I started this thread because I came accross what, in my view, was an attractive and prayerful setting of the Kyrie that people actually joined in with!
So perhaps this is reassuring. Perhaps it is no coincidence that it was sung at St. Gregory's.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Emperor's nephew - please explain.

O.K. if we are giving similar scrutiny ... What do people think of the Kyrie of the 'Missa de Angelis'? - I tried this at a parish I worked at a few years ago, and it was not a success.
The PP felt it was overlong and not really a Kyrie. I do not wish to offend, but I find this setting rather meaningless and self-indulgent.

Sadly this piece of major key cod-chant and Credo 3 are what some seem to set as a benchmark of liturgical decorum and musical authenticity.

[nazard]

Surely, the real test is whether the music reinforces the message that the words are begging for mercy. In my opinion this one fails, as does the Kyrie of the Missa de Angelis and a lot of other mass settings. From memory, I think Matt Maher also wrote the "Agnus Day" of the St Timothy Mass and that doesn't work either.

I appreciate that the congregation were able to join in, but ours manages a rowdy rendering of "Roll out the barrel" on occasions, so I am not sure that is a great recommendation.

[johnquinn39]

Surely, the real test is whether the music reinforces the message that the words are begging for mercy. In my opinion this one fails, as does the Kyrie of the Missa de Angelis and a lot of other mass settings. From memory, I think Matt Maher also wrote the "Agnus Day" of the St Timothy Mass and that doesn't work either.

I appreciate that the congregation were able to join in, but ours manages a rowdy rendering of "Roll out the barrel" on occasions, so I am not sure that is a great recommendation.

I'm not sure if the intention of the Kyrie Eleison is to beg for mercy. (Psalm 38 'Lord, do not rebuke me ... ' would be better for this). As far as I am aware, the 'Eleison' (have mercy) refers to the olive branch brought by the dove to Noah - a symbol of God's mercy.

To me, this does not fail. I have to say that I agree that the Missa de Angelis Kyrie does. It is not relevant that Matt Maher also wrote 'Agnus Day, you take away ... '.

Again, going back to RC's singing. You will usually raise the roof if you put on 'As I kneel before you' - 'O sacrament most holy' - 'Immaculate Mary' etc. - So it is so refreshing to have people sing a liturgical, dialogical piece like the Kyrie in Matt Maher's setting.

[mcb]

Surely, the real test is whether the music reinforces the message that the words are begging for mercy.

That's only half the story: according to GIRM it is a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy. If acclaiming the Lord makes your congregation want to sing heartily, then that's all to the good.

[nazard]

...according to GIRM it is a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy...

Surely the words acclaim the Lord and implore His mercy, the music is just meant to make the meaning more obvious. It is still a piece of perfectly good liturgy if the words are said.