Pentecost Sequence

[Hare]

A simple question: Is the Sequence sung at the Vigil Mass? I have heard, and read, conflicting views on this.

Many thanks

H

[docmattc]

We had a discussion about it last year in this thread which contained conflicting views!

As I understand it, the pentecost vigil has its own texts which are different to those of Sunday morning and do not include the sequence. However, if your vigil is using the Sunday texts...who knows?

[Southern Comfort]

The problem is that when people say Pentecost Vigil they are talking about two different things.

(a) The Pentecost Sunday Mass, anticipated on Saturday evening, and so often referred to as a Vigil Mass. This has the Sequence.
(b) The Pentecost Vigil Mass, used on the Saturday, which doesn't have the Sequence (and doesn't fulfil the Sunday obligation if it's used on Saturday evening).

[Gabriel]

(and doesn't fulfil the Sunday obligation if it's used on Saturday evening).

Did I miss a meeting somewhere? - I am not sure where this originates.

To try and be really clear there 3 sets of texts for Pentecost
Vigil Mass: In Missal and Lectionary - no Sequence
Day Mass: In Missal and Lectionary - Sequence
Extended Vigil Mass - coming as an option in Roman Missal 3rd edition, in some ways similar to Easter Vigil - no Sequence.

The Sequence comes with the readings of the Day Mass. If you Gospel is John 20 your using the Sequence, if it is John 7 (Vigil texts) you are not.

I would however note that the Libreria Editrice Vaticana produced Ordo does indicate the use of the Sequence at the Vigil. I cannot see anything in the liturgical documents to back this up. The reference to the use of the sequence is the Lectionary - it is not mentioned in the Missal - the Ordo Lectionum Missae is quite clear in that it is only mentioned in the list for the Day Mass of Pentecost and omitted in the Vigil Provision. The only other reference I am aware of is GIRM 64 - which again refers to Pentecost Day.

[Hare]

Oh heck!

Our local (Southwark) Diocesan Directory states:

22 Saturday. Evening: First Vespers and proper Vigil Mass of Pentecost: Gloria, only one Old Testament reading is necessary, Sequence, Creec, proper Preface and communicantes(Eucharistic Prayer 1)

[Gabriel]

Mistakes in Ordo can be easy to repeat from year to year - would be my view - it's why ordo-compiler have a thankless task!

However I can see no evidence in the liturgical books for its inclusion. Checking with the new edition of the Canadian Lectionary which received Roman recognitio in 2008 it has not been included in the Vigil Reading there which I would have expected to see if there had been a further instruction.

[Southern Comfort]

(and doesn't fulfil the Sunday obligation if it's used on Saturday evening).

Did I miss a meeting somewhere? - I am not sure where this originates.

To try and be really clear there 3 sets of texts for Pentecost
Vigil Mass: In Missal and Lectionary - no Sequence
Day Mass: In Missal and Lectionary - Sequence
Extended Vigil Mass - coming as an option in Roman Missal 3rd edition, in some ways similar to Easter Vigil - no Sequence.

I decided not to talk about the extended Vigil Mass for clarity [sic!], since it is not quite here yet.

Seeing as many folk commonly refer, incorrectly, to "the Vigil Mass of Sunday" when talking about a Saturday evening anticipated Mass of the Sunday, I just thought I would make it clear (obviously I failed! ) that in the case of Pentecost the word "Vigil" can be misleading both concerning the Mass formulary and the Sunday obligation.

I'll try again.
(1) If you use the Pentecost Mass of the Day formulary on Saturday evening (incorrectly referring to it as "a Vigil Mass of Pentecost Sunday"), there is a Sequence and the Sunday obligation is fulfilled.
(2) If you use the Pentecost Vigil Mass formulary on Saturday, there is no Sequence and the Sunday obligation is not fulfilled since you have not celebrated the Mass of the Sunday.
(3) If by any chance you were to use the extended Vigil Mass formulary, there is no Sequence (except in the Vatican Ordo, as Gabriel points out) and the Sunday obligation is not fulfilled for the same reason as in (2) above.

Returning to Hare's original query, it all depends on what you mean when you talk about the Pentecost Vigil !

[Hare]

(and doesn't fulfil the Sunday obligation if it's used on Saturday evening).

Did I miss a meeting somewhere? - I am not sure where this originates.

To try and be really clear there 3 sets of texts for Pentecost
Vigil Mass: In Missal and Lectionary - no Sequence
Day Mass: In Missal and Lectionary - Sequence
Extended Vigil Mass - coming as an option in Roman Missal 3rd edition, in some ways similar to Easter Vigil - no Sequence.

I decided not to talk about the extended Vigil Mass for clarity [sic!], since it is not quite here yet.

Seeing as many folk commonly refer, incorrectly, to "the Vigil Mass of Sunday" when talking about a Saturday evening anticipated Mass of the Sunday, I just thought I would make it clear (obviously I failed! ) that in the case of Pentecost the word "Vigil" can be misleading both concerning the Mass formulary and the Sunday obligation.

I'll try again.
(1) If you use the Pentecost Mass of the Day formulary on Saturday evening (incorrectly referring to it as "a Vigil Mass of Pentecost Sunday"), there is a Sequence and the Sunday obligation is fulfilled.
(2) If you use the Pentecost Vigil Mass formulary on Saturday, there is no Sequence and the Sunday obligation is not fulfilled since you have not celebrated the Mass of the Sunday.
(3) If by any chance you were to use the extended Vigil Mass formulary, there is no Sequence (except in the Vatican Ordo, as Gabriel points out) and the Sunday obligation is not fulfilled for the same reason as in (2) above.

Returning to Hare's original query, it all depends on what you mean when you talk about the Pentecost Vigil !

We have used (2) not realizing it does not fulfil Sunday obligation

[Gabriel]

(2) If you use the Pentecost Vigil Mass formulary on Saturday, there is no Sequence and the Sunday obligation is not fulfilled since you have not celebrated the Mass of the Sunday.

I'm sorry but I'm still unclear where the idea originates that where there is a specific Vigil Mass text for a Sunday or Holyday this does not fulfil the obligation.

[contrabordun]

So does the Easter Vigil fulfil the Sunday obligation (I bet most people think it does - I certainly do)?
If so, why is Pentecost different?

[Hare]

Not to mention John The Baptist, The Assumption, and Christmas - all of which have Vigil Mass texts!

[Mithras]

But the Easter Vigil satisfies the Easter Sunday obligation (with different texts for both); similarly the Christmas Vigil and Midnight Mass satisfies Christmas Day both dawn ad day Mass (with three different sets of text).

[Southern Comfort]

I'm sorry but I'm still unclear where the idea originates that where there is a specific Vigil Mass text for a Sunday or Holyday this does not fulfil the obligation.

I think the origin of this lies in what may or may not be an internal contradiction in Eucharisticum Mysterium (May 1967), no 28:

Where permission has been granted by the Apostolic See to fulfill the Sunday obligation on the preceding Saturday evening, pastors should explain the meaning of this permission carefully to the faithful and should ensure that the significance of Sunday is not thereby obscured. The purpose of this concession is in fact to enable the Christians of today to celebrate more easily the day of the resurrection of the Lord.

All concessions and contrary customs notwithstanding, when celebrated on Saturday this Mass may be celebrated only in the evening, at times determined by the local Ordinary.

In these cases the Mass celebrated is that assigned in the calendar to Sunday [my emphasis], the homily and the prayer of the faithful are not to be omitted.

What has been said above is equally valid for the Mass on holy days of obligation which for the same reason has been transferred to the preceding evening.

The document then goes on to say

The Mass celebrated on the evening before Pentecost Sunday is the present Mass of the Vigil, with the Creed.

which can be interpreted to mean that an anticipated Mass of Pentecost is therefore forbidden on the Saturday evening, so if you go to a Pentecost Vigil Mass it does not fulfil the Sunday obligation. This interpretation is supported by the fact that the very next sentence of the document runs:

Likewise [sic], the Mass celebrated on the evening of Christmas Eve is the Mass of the Vigil but with white vestments, the Alleluia and the Preface of the Nativity, as on the feast.

I don't know of anyone of repute who thinks that the Vigil of Christmas fulfils the obligation for Christmas: this is done by Midnight, Dawn or Day Masses. The document appears to be saying that the Christmas and Pentecost Vigil are similar cases.

But Gabriel is right: this may not be the only interpretation. And some people do appear to think that the Vigil of Christmas fulfils the obligation.

One further note: when the document says "evening" in the citations above, this may well mean "eve", which is not the same thing at all and can include the whole of the previous day, not just the period from 4.00pm onwards. This is supported by the fact that the next thing the document goes on to treat is the timing of the Easter Vigil which must be after dusk on Holy Saturday evening.

Since this instruction was issued in 1967, before the present Missal and Lectionary had been promulgated, it also does not mention the Vigils of Ss Peter and Paul or the Assumption (both holydays of obligation in this country), let alone the Vigil of St John the Baptist.

[Gabriel]

As SC notes the document is open to another interpretation.

First, Eucharisticum Mysterium comes before current Liturgical Books so it is not the last word on the subject. I think I am right that the Code of Canon Law made Mass of the Sunday on Saturday Evening as permitted and fulfilling the obligation.

What I think is being confused is 2 things. I understand the Mass assigned to the Sunday as the texts given for that celebration in the liturgical books. Therefore Pentecost Sunday has two sets of texts assigned: Vigil and Day Masses. Therefore the Vigil Mass fulfills the OBligation.
However there is a link between obligation and the texts used - it is not enough to go to Mass at the right time it has to be the right Mass.

[VML]

SC says '
'I don't know of anyone of repute who thinks that the Vigil of Christmas fulfils the obligation for Christmas: this is done by Midnight, Dawn or Day Masses.' Even if 'Midnight' is 8 pm?

And does that make the huge congregations wh flock to so called children's Mass at 6.30 or thereabouts people of disrepute?