Problem musicians

[Vox Americana]

Possibly a more positive experience than being part of a music group trying hard to engage the assembly in song with only limited success.

You don't sound too happy. Are you still having problems, Dot?
Is it time to move on? Or just accept that your guy's gonna do things his way and keep quiet?

Makes me wonder what other people do when they meet problems with the guys running the music, or even with the priest himself - any of y'all changed parishes, or do you just sit it out, or do you create a fuss and confrontational situation until they change?

I read that Organist has moved and is now happier. What do you think Dot should do in her situation - move or stay?

[Dot]

I have made my decision and I do not wish it to be discussed on the Forum any further. Any further discussion should be at a parochial level. It doesn't have to be confrontational if people will listen to each other. I think we can move towards our assembly and be more at one with them, and I shall endeavour to do that in future. There is too much to cherish to throw it all away.

To get a fuller picture, Vox A, you need to read everything, not just select the "frustrated" bits!

dot

[Vox Americana]

To get a fuller picture, Vox A, you need to read everything, not just select the "frustrated" bits!

I surely do. But you sure do seem frustrated often!

It doesn't have to be confrontational if people will listen to each other

Now there's the rub. Most times people will hear what you're saying; but if you ain't in charge then it is easy to think that you have been ignored and therefore not 'listened' to. What I guess each of us needs to do then is decide what to do next. If you truly cherish the good, then it might just be time to button your lip and let him/her get on with it.

Let's move from specifics then and throw it open for comment. Any music directors out there care to say how they keep the troops happy?

[presbyter]

IMHO - if Catholic Church Musicians all had a basic grounding in the Pastoral. Liturgical and Musical skills necessary for the ministry, there would be far fewer problems than there are ............. and this goes for teachers too ........ I could write much more but not at this moment.

I wonder, if one asked a parish musician what he/she understood by what he/she was doing at the Sat/Sun Mass, what answers might one get?

[Benevenio]

if Catholic Church Musicians all had a basic grounding in the Pastoral. Liturgical and Musical skills necessary for the ministry, there would be far fewer problems than there are

Possibly. But perhaps the problems come from those who feel threatened because they don't know as much as those who are trained - both laity and clerics.

I will be honest here: Dot is in my choir; I am the person working in the situations to which she refers in her postings on this forum. Vox Americana is quite right - it seems to me thatthere is often frustration expressed; however, I refuse to be drawn about Dot specifically, for that should be very unfair. All I request is that Dot doesn't use this forum to have public digs and to air her frustrations about me and this parish. I prefer to sort things out more privately, and I am sure that it must bore the rest of you.

Christopher Walker, it is reported, in his workshop this year at the the Summer School, told the people there that he would ask disruptive members to leave the choir, and he was fairly blunt about it. The impression I got was that there is one choir leader and that Chris doesn't believe in choirs run by committee. Disruption breeds discontent amongst other members of the choir and assembly and should therefore be removed and discouraged.

However, I'm not so sure that I have the right, as the leader of a Church choir, to ask anyone to leave - not those who disrupt, nor those who cannot sing but groan along tunelessly, nor anyone else. It's all part of the ministry, the service to the assembly and to God.

Where I do agree with Chris: ultimately choirs cannot be run by committees. Where there are musical/liturgical/pastoral decisions to be made about the music, whilst there can be discussion, in my opinion it is best if the MD does the deciding - at which point the discussion ceases, and you get on with it like it or not, without whinging. There is precedent for this model, of course. Go and read about John XXIII reversing decisions at the Second Vatican Council after they'd discussed and voted on issues...

I wonder, if one asked a parish musician what he/she understood by what he/she was doing at the Sat/Sun Mass, what answers might one get?

I bet the answers would be as varied as those you'd get from the clergy...
How long a book do you want?

[SOP]

I feel uneasy with this thread as it seems to be inviting us to be judgmental about individuals who are part of our 'worshipping communites'.

We are all human beings, all God's children, all individuals with our own unique history. I doubt if any of us, lay or clergy, can honestly say we have never over-reacted, mis-understood or been mis-understood at times when with fellow church musicians. We don't start every practice or Mass with a full and frank account of everything that has happened to us since the last time we all met so there are occasions when a harmless remark can cut to the quick.

I really do not think slagging each other off in this kind of forum would be helpful. It would also discourage us from telling others about this site as it could become petty and back-biting - slightly amusing to total outsiders but deeply wounding to those involved.

I shall get off my soap box now!

[presbyter]

it is best if the MD does the deciding - at which point the discussion ceases, and you get on with it like it or not, without whinging.

Wel - errrrrrrrrrrrrrr - yes and no ..............

The responsibility for the pastoral care of a parish (and therefore it's liturgical celebrations) rests ultimately not with the MD but with the PP and, please God, the two ought to strive to be true collaborators IMHO.

I can think of one or two churches where the MD has total control over what is sung and the result - IMHBCO - falls way short of the vision of Christian celebration as found in the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy and subsequent documents.

[presbyter]

Anyone got any suggestions as to how "feedback" from the assembly about our worship may be obtained sensitively? If we as musicians obtained, as it were, an external audit of how we were ministering effectively or not, might that not brush aside any problems within a group and help us concentrate solely on our pastoral function? Does anyone's Parish Pastoral Council ever comment on liturgy, for example?

[Benevenio]

Parish Pastoral Council

What's one of those?

Best feedback I get is by taking a cup of tea or coffee with those who stay behind after Mass on a Sunday morning - and also from those who do not, but catch me on odd occassions (like the middle of hte Children's Liturgy I ran one week) to say what they like and don't like. OK, so it is not truly a representative sample, but at least those there can tell me that they really do not like the drum being used in Be thou my vision

I've noticed over the 13 years I've been in the parish that things have changed from "We really do not like what you are doing at all" to "We really like some of what you are doing, and can you please think about..." which I take as a positive change. They may not sing everything, but they are usually helpful in the feedback of what works and what doesn't.

[presbyter]

Perhaps we could also consider the model of the Summer School in that a Director of Liturgy and a Director of Music worked together. I didn't see the two P's coming to blows, did you? Answers on the Summer School thread please!!!!

[Tsume Tsuyu]

Anyone got any suggestions as to how "feedback" from the assembly about our worship may be obtained sensitively?

I agree with Benevenio that feedback is probably best obtained through informal chat, over tea after Mass, or at a parish social. I've found that folk, especially the older parishioners, are not at all reticent about what they think of a new piece, or what we've done to an old piece.

Our choir, with its guitars, was for many years described as the 'folk group'. Synonymous with 'folk', was the impression that everything we sang was 'happy clappy'. Thankfully, we've shaken off that image and, from parishioners telling me week in week out how much they preferred the 'proper' hymns, we now receive a good deal of positive reaction. People have realised that we choose music to reflect the readings and the Gospel and express enthusiasm for a lot of the new music. Equally, we have learnt, I think, to be more sympathetic to our congregation; to remember that they have grown up with the trad. hymns and to try and include these where appropriate.

We are there to support and enable and we can only do that effectively, if we can set aside the personal differences we might have. One of Chris Walker's tips was that the choir should pray together more, it should focus on what it is trying to do with the music, read the readings, or at least the Gospel, before a practice and focus the group's minds on the purpose of its ministry. He also said, interestingly, that each choir member should find a spiritual friend - someone to pray with, confide in, someone who will listen and encourage us. It put me in mind of a card I was once given, which read:

Oh, the comfort, the inexpressible comfort of feeling safe with a person,
having neither to weigh thoughts, nor measure words
but to pour them all right out, just as they are, chaff and grain together,
knowing that a faithful hand will take and sift them,
keep what is worth keeping and then,
with the breath of kindness,
blow the rest away.

Perhaps, if we could all find someone to share our frustrations with, we would be able to get rid of some of the chaff and do something useful with the grain......

TT

[Vox Americana]

tea after Mass...

No tea in Boston, MA

It's great to talk with folks tho - and surely is a good way of getting to know their tastes, and for them to get to know that you're human - with feelings, likes, dislikes - just as they are.

[Sonoqui]

I LOVE the drum in 'Be Thou My Vision'!

[musicus]

Friends,

Could we please avoid negative references to other members of the forum here, even - especially? - if we know their RL (real life) identity and not just their pseudonym? The first of our House Rules says:
Please post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing other users will not be tolerated.
I don't consider that we have descended to flaming and abuse yet, but some of the discussion has been less than respectful.

Thank you.

Musicus (moderator)

[Vox Americana]

As I started this thread, I apologise.