Just looking ahead to August the 15th and the Assumption of The Blessed Virgin Mary I note that the Society's Liturgy Planner suggests "I'll sing a Hymn to Mary" as one possible hymn. It goes on to say that only the version in either "Laudate" or Celebration Hymnal for Everyone" are appropriate.
Can anyone throw any light on why this should be? What's the difference?
I'll sing a hymn to Mary
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Hi Gwyn,
You will find that the last two lines of the traditional version goes as follows:
"when wicked men blaspheme thee, I'll love and bless thy name."
It seems that wicked men (or women, or children, or little animals especially the furry ones) no longer do this
so instead, the versions in Laudate and Celebration for Everyone reads:
"O may I imitate thee and magnify God's name".
To my mind, political (or ecclesiastical, theological or whatever) correctness once again gone mad!
You will find that the last two lines of the traditional version goes as follows:
"when wicked men blaspheme thee, I'll love and bless thy name."
It seems that wicked men (or women, or children, or little animals especially the furry ones) no longer do this
so instead, the versions in Laudate and Celebration for Everyone reads:
"O may I imitate thee and magnify God's name".
To my mind, political (or ecclesiastical, theological or whatever) correctness once again gone mad!
John Wyse's original text (as printed in, for example, The Catholic Hymnbook) has the refrain:
When wicked men blaspheme thee,
I'll love and bless thy name.
Laudate changes this to:
O may I imitate thee
and magnify God's name.
Apart from the non-inclusive "men", I suspect that the later (anonymous) editor took exception to "blaspheme", supposing it to ascribe divinity to Mary. However, as Webster's Dictionary (1913 - just 15 years after Wyse's death) says, the meaning is wider than that:
2. Figuratively, of persons and things not religiously
sacred, but held in high honor: To calumniate; to revile;
to abuse.
You do blaspheme the good in mocking me. --Shak.
Those who from our labors heap their board,
Blaspheme their feeder and forget their lord. --Pope.
If a change is called for, to take account of modern sensibilities, would not the following meet the case?
When wicked folk revile thee
I'll love and bless thy name.
(Not that I would use the hymn anyway
)
Music & Liturgy is not infallible, of course. Write and tell the editors if you dissent.
Musicus
When wicked men blaspheme thee,
I'll love and bless thy name.
Laudate changes this to:
O may I imitate thee
and magnify God's name.
Apart from the non-inclusive "men", I suspect that the later (anonymous) editor took exception to "blaspheme", supposing it to ascribe divinity to Mary. However, as Webster's Dictionary (1913 - just 15 years after Wyse's death) says, the meaning is wider than that:
2. Figuratively, of persons and things not religiously
sacred, but held in high honor: To calumniate; to revile;
to abuse.
You do blaspheme the good in mocking me. --Shak.
Those who from our labors heap their board,
Blaspheme their feeder and forget their lord. --Pope.
If a change is called for, to take account of modern sensibilities, would not the following meet the case?
When wicked folk revile thee
I'll love and bless thy name.
(Not that I would use the hymn anyway
)
Music & Liturgy is not infallible, of course. Write and tell the editors if you dissent.
Musicus
I'll sing a hymn to Mary
I think this was one of the changes Patrick Geary made when he was editing CFE, citing the reason that you can blaspheme only God, not Mary.
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Merseysider
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Well I'm generally stuck on next week anyway – long time since I've been music in August and I have problems with most Marians hymns at Mass.
We'll some version of the Magnificat but after that... What?
Can you really begin Mass with I'll Sing A Hymn to Mary? Most other M&L are unknown to our congregation and all the Marian hymns they do know make me squirm slightly.
Any votes for Lord Jesus Christ? Addressed to Himself but constantly reminding us that he is "Mary's Son".
Have a feeling for Crown Him With Many Crowns because it reminds us that he's "the Virgin's Son, the God Incarnate Born".
Or do I throw caution to the wind and let them have a really good sing of the oldies they know and love – after all, they sing everything else we ask of them. And we are the parish of Our Lady Immaculate....
All suggestions welcome.
We'll some version of the Magnificat but after that... What?
Can you really begin Mass with I'll Sing A Hymn to Mary? Most other M&L are unknown to our congregation and all the Marian hymns they do know make me squirm slightly.
Any votes for Lord Jesus Christ? Addressed to Himself but constantly reminding us that he is "Mary's Son".
Have a feeling for Crown Him With Many Crowns because it reminds us that he's "the Virgin's Son, the God Incarnate Born".
Or do I throw caution to the wind and let them have a really good sing of the oldies they know and love – after all, they sing everything else we ask of them. And we are the parish of Our Lady Immaculate....
All suggestions welcome.
Well, given that the doctrine behind the assumption, I would have thought that "O purest of creatures" would fit in quite well.
The wider point is how we should feel about not using hymns which we personally have problems with. My late predecessor in my parish would put on some absolute stinkers, and I often wonder whether it is truly the Holy Spirit which is guiding me not to use them.
D.
The wider point is how we should feel about not using hymns which we personally have problems with. My late predecessor in my parish would put on some absolute stinkers, and I often wonder whether it is truly the Holy Spirit which is guiding me not to use them.
D.
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Merseysider
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dunstan wrote:Well, given that the doctrine behind the assumption, I would have thought that "O purest of creatures" would fit in quite well..
Yes, except...
It's not the hymn...
It's the Protestant in me (and God knows where that came from given my Irish-Catholic background). Feels alien to be singing anything to Mary at any point during Mass. Now, a hymn which said: "Thank you for giving us this purest of creatures..." would fit the bill. But address a hymn to BVM at the beginning...
Oh, come on, someone give me some clues about the whole liturgical theology here.
Well, if you don't like addressing a hymn to Mary (and I would wholeheartedly agree with you) then I'd go for:
- Sing of Mary, Pure and Lowly to start, which will lull most people into thinking it is about the BVM, but after the first two lines largely is about God.
- I'd use one of Stanbrook Abbey's texts to Alan Rees's music (it is in CfE, but I can't recall the title - will edit in later [see later post]) at the Offertory.
- Communion would see Pat Lee's text A Hymn to Our Lady either to Stephen Dean's tune, or more likely to Geffrey Boulton Smith's excellent setting which was published in Rejoice and be Glad. I think it is in Luadate (yes, I know, but considering how poor the proof-reading was on that publication, I couldn't resist) but suspect it might only be Stephen's version. The text is excellent, not sentimental rubbish.
- And to finish the four-hymn sandwich, I'd use a lively Magnificat to end with - Tell out my soul perhaps, which people sing. There are many others.
Last edited by Benevenio on Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Benevenio.
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presbyter
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avoid ambiguity please
I have neither a liturgy planner (SSG or other) nor hymnal to hand, so no specific suggestions. Yet I do not think it at all appropriate to sing a hymn to Mary on this great feast at all. This is a celebration of what God has done - so sing about that (and yes, what an appropriate song a version of the Magnificat would be as it is the Gospel of the day). I also agree with Benevenio that a song about how Mary responded to God's action in her life would be apt, praying also that we can respond in faith, trust and love as she did. By all means, ask for Mary's intercession that we so do and come to join her in the glory of heaven. The prayers of the liturgy do that.
Look at - and pray with - the lectionary material and the prayers of the Mass (and Divine Office, if you can). You might find, if you do, that an
Easter song would be appropriate somewhere, for isn't the Assumption a celebration of Christ's victory over death?
Whatever we sing, might I suggest that we avoid texts which might be read doctrinally as a bit foggy. For example, look at what could be seen by some as an ambiguity in the second antiphon at first Vespers. "The gates of paradise were closed to all men (sic) because of Eve but they have been opened again through the Virgin Mary." That text is about Mary's response to God (Blessed is she who believed........... ). It doesn't mean she is our saviour!
Look at - and pray with - the lectionary material and the prayers of the Mass (and Divine Office, if you can). You might find, if you do, that an
Easter song would be appropriate somewhere, for isn't the Assumption a celebration of Christ's victory over death?
Whatever we sing, might I suggest that we avoid texts which might be read doctrinally as a bit foggy. For example, look at what could be seen by some as an ambiguity in the second antiphon at first Vespers. "The gates of paradise were closed to all men (sic) because of Eve but they have been opened again through the Virgin Mary." That text is about Mary's response to God (Blessed is she who believed........... ). It doesn't mean she is our saviour!
Collective Singing
presbyter wrote:I have neither a liturgy planner (SSG or other) nor hymnal to hand, so no specific suggestions. Yet I do not think it at all appropriate to sing a hymn to Mary on this great feast at all.
Head above parapet ...
My congregation includes a significant proportion of middle aged ladies who were educated by nuns. They grew up singing hymns to Our Lady quite often, and draw inner peace and succour from this link to their formative years.
To my mind, as long as what we are singing isn't actually blasphemous then the lift which they get from the "comfortable old pair of shoes" is one consideration to sit alongside others when choosing hymns. By a similar token, while "old favourites" must be used sparingly, the people present for the collective act of worship are brought closer together by all singing with gusto.
So, as it's August and we're down to a two hymn sandwich, I'll probably use "O purest of creatures" to come in, and "Tell out my soul" to go out.
Alan Rees's - God, who made the earth and sky: 225 in CfE for the tune; 482 for the Stanbrook text.
Abbot Alan taught us this one Summer school at Liverpool Hope in a Chant workshop. As well as the good text, I think it was probably the first time I'd sung English chant, which is why it has stuck with me.
Abbot Alan taught us this one Summer school at Liverpool Hope in a Chant workshop. As well as the good text, I think it was probably the first time I'd sung English chant, which is why it has stuck with me.
Benevenio.
Well!
There is one woman in our congregation who is quite vocal every May about there not being "even one hymn to Our Lady" so I reckoned she would be pleased at today's music. During the post-Communion motet, Schubert's Ave Maria, someone was rustling about 20 plastic carrier bags all the way through. I glanced round to discover it was her!!! Furthermore she had been rustling them throughout most of the Mass, they just sounded louder during the solo.
I think people should be urged to leave their plastic carrier bags at the back of church and only reclaim on their way out!!!
rustle, rustle, rustle, clink keys, rustle, rustle, rustle. (thought I would share that with you all!)
There is one woman in our congregation who is quite vocal every May about there not being "even one hymn to Our Lady" so I reckoned she would be pleased at today's music. During the post-Communion motet, Schubert's Ave Maria, someone was rustling about 20 plastic carrier bags all the way through. I glanced round to discover it was her!!! Furthermore she had been rustling them throughout most of the Mass, they just sounded louder during the solo.
I think people should be urged to leave their plastic carrier bags at the back of church and only reclaim on their way out!!!
rustle, rustle, rustle, clink keys, rustle, rustle, rustle. (thought I would share that with you all!)