Payment?

[Merseysider]

While I don't wish to sound mercenary, what are your thoughts on payment for church muscians?

I've recently calculated that the work I do across our two parishes takes 4-6 hours a week (services and rehearsals) and I probably spend about the same amount of time planning. Composing and arranging takes forever too but that, you could argue, is optional. I do all of this for free and have chosen to offer my services...I haven't been press-ganged and I could give it all up at any time.

On the other hand, it's taking so much of my time that I've had to drop one of my freelance jobs – that's costing me £200-£300 a month and I was having financial problems when that was coming in regularly. And, as I am now working on a self-employed basis, I've arranged my hours so that I'm free on Tuesdays: paperwork in the morning, teenage choir in the afternoon, parish choir/cantors in the evening = another chunk of my basic income gone.

Also, no matter how much I fiddle, there isn't one day when I don't have some sort of commitment: Saturday evening Mass (a second one coming when the youth choir takes off) and Sunday morning Mass. Very difficult to have a weekend away or to have a "night before" because seven days a week are "the morning after".

Of course, I have made all these choices so I can't grumble, can I!

Except....

I am temporarily helping out in another parish: rehearsing with their newly-formed music group every Wednesday and leading the congregation one weekend a month – with all the paperwork that accompanies it. Unable to find an organist from it's own ranks, this parish is paying someone £40 a week for playing at one service. He's a lovely guy, very good and, in my opinion, worth every penny.

My bone of contention is simple: why are parishes willing to pay for organists (only way to get them) but not for MD's.

Is an organist worth so much more than the person who plans, arranges, composes, rehearses and, at the end of the day, brings the whole thing together?

Suppose I'm feeling a bit sore because working in the liturgy is effectively costing me so much money that I can't afford to live. While my organist is gaining an extra £200-£240 a month.

Also, I'm a tad knackered! (Will that get "bleeped"?).

Any thoughts?

[Canonico]

While I don't wish to sound mercenary, what are your thoughts on payment for church muscians?

It seems to me, Merseysider, that it is a matter of justice. 'The workman/woman deserves his/her keep.' I certainly feel that if someone is qualified to undertake a specialist ministry such as Instrumentalist and Director of Music then there should be some remuneration for the time spent in arranging, rehearsing, composing, etc. It is quite a lot of time taken from family life, work and leisure.
To pay them just for the exercise of their ministry during Mass or other Services is perhaps another thing. Readers, Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, Altar Servers, Welcomers, etc. do not get paid for exercising their ministry during a Service. I am, however, always ready to fund them for attending relevant courses so that they can be properly equipped to undertake those and other ministries.
If we want properly qualified and experienced people to lead us in various aspects of the worship of our God then it is going to cost money. If we want the church to look beautiful we need to pay the painters, decorators and architects.
I would not like to get to the stage of having to pay for everything we do, but there is a balance to be kept which is not always easy. Perhaps the SSG has some guidance notes for clergy, parish councils and other parties about payment for musical and other expertise in the liturgy?

[Merseysider]

I suppose that's the difference: I'm not

qualified to undertake a specialist ministry such as Instrumentalist and Director of Music

very few of us are.

I think the hard part for me is finding organist X being paid £40 a week while we're killing ourselves raising that much money for the music fund. One of our churches has no keyboard and we need around £750 for a small Roland. The other has a nice digital organ but in the wrong place, another £600 needed to move it. In the meantime it's taking hours of my time writing instrumental arrangements and persuading people to come and play until we have the two instruments sorted out. Beginning to resent it somehow.

Really don't wish to sound grasping but finding it hard that this "ministry" is costing me, literally, hundreds a month and not sure what to do about it. Could pull out altogether but who could leave these people without music? That would seem quite wrong somehow.

[pirate]

This is something the SSG needs to address (again!), not just providing a rationale but also providing a few guidelines and, perhaps, examples of reasonable rates. What are the RSCM rates? Anyone know offhand?

I know it's a bit of a hot potato. But we see ads in the Catholic Press for salaried parish catechetical co-ordinators, youth workers, etc; there seems to be no problem in principle about paying for these, so why not (more) paid liturgist/musician posts? Why is the liturgy perceived as a lower priority?

I'm lucky - I am a DM in a city-centre parish, and I'm paid £40 per week for looking after the music for one weekly Sunday Mass and another Sunday Mass every two weeks (ie when the organist plays, rather than the folk group), plus Christmas, Easter and other high days and holidays. We keep going throughout July/August, but I do delegate from time to time so I can get a break. At least it's something, I hear you cry; but some weeks it seems to be working out at about £3 per hour, to do something which is quite specialised and which has an effect on the lives of the community as a whole and individual people...

Mind you, I'm not whingeing - I'd find it much more difficult to work with teenagers. Good on yer, Merseysider!

pirate

[presbyter]

It seems to me, Merseysider, that it is a matter of justice. 'The workman/woman deserves his/her keep.'

I wonder how manufacturers of Altar breads, wine, vestments, Missalettes/notice sheets, Lectionaries, candles, albs .................. etc. would feel if we expected their services for free.

[Gabriel]

I am still interested in what people think are reasonable expectations of a parish musician - what would a job description look like?

the person who plans, arranges, composes, rehearses and, at the end of the day, brings the whole thing together?

Even in an average parish the person leading the music usually has greater responsibility and preparation than other lay liturgical ministries and these are areas of skill.

One of the problems is that people who are good pastoral musicians are people who are committed and generous with their time and skills and too easily in the Church this gets used, if not abused.

Gabriel

[musicus]

Perhaps the SSG has some guidance notes for clergy, parish councils and other parties about payment for musical and other expertise in the liturgy?

No, it doesn't. Perhaps the Trustees could consider whether this was something they should look into. I'll raise it with them and report back.

Musicus

[sidvicius]

We have to get the balance right. Some good, highly qualified musicians might make a living out of their craft. Some places can afford their services but there is a sliding scale down to where music ministry is voluntary, done for the love of it. Music is not a ministry like soup kitchen or prison visiting - difficult work, and does anyone get paid for these?

Merseysider's remit appears to have grown like topsy - whether he was asked to provide these services, or whether he just wanted to, he doesn't say. However if there is a perceived need and he is seen to be fulfilling it, he ought to be able to negotiate with , or at least enquire of, his Parish Pastoral Council as to a reasonable level of financial reimbursement. It would help if he could provide some quantifiable proof of the time/finances it is taking also. Unfortunately the fact still remains that provision of religious music is a luxury, not a necessity - church services will go on regardless. It is up to the congregation to decide whether it is something they would rather pay for than lose.

While my sympathies are with Merseysider we must be realistic. We would all like to be recompensed for our services, but if the finances are simply 'not there' then we must all decide, personally, on the level to which our goodwill will reach - how much time and effort we are happy to provide free of charge. If we overstretch ourselves, we will only end up providing an unworthy service because we are 'spread too thinly' amongst the tasks we feel it is necessary for us to provide.

The point at which we feel we deserve financial recognition is the point where things start getting a little more serious however, for then we really are providing a service, not a ministry. True, workmen should get fair pay, but to minister is to give freely.

[Canonico]

True, workmen should get fair pay, but to minister is to give freely.

Whilst agreeing with much that 'sidvicious' has to say, and agreeing that to minister is to give freely, I wonder, then, why we pay ordained ministers? In fact, we do not 'pay' them, the Church financially supports their ministry which (like our NHS?) is then FREE at the point of access to all who need it. Likewise, in a number of places, the parish financially supports the services of a Director of Music, Organist, etc. We could not always give the necessary time and effort to Ordained Ministry if it was not financially supported. The same may well be true of the liturgical music ministry. I also find it sad that in so many places even the 'tools' of liturgical ministry (hymn books, sheets, instruments) are, likewise, not adequately financially supported.
The solution? Perhaps, as one of my Assistants always says, "If you don't ask, you don't get"!

[Merseysider]

All very interesting and thanks for your thoughts.

I'd hate you to think I'm grasping as I do try not to be and I live reasonably simply – apart from the odd bottle of Chardonnay.

I'm only a tad miffed because it's costing me so much money because of hours lost elsewhere – and I certainly don't want paying on an hourly rate – happy to do much for nothing.

PP's currently on holiday, something I could never afford. Similarly, I could never have a car as new as his (having said that, neither could most of the parishioners!). And the SSG Summer School? Way out of my financial means.

I could cut my cloth (hours) accordingly but if any of you were working where I am you would find that hard to do.

[Vox Americana]

Unfortunately the fact still remains that provision of religious music is a luxury, not a necessity - church services will go on regardless.

Hey! I don't agree there: I think music is an integral part of liturgical prayer. To twist that old Jesuit joke, it is not so much that I sing while I pray, more that I pray while I sing. Back of my mind also recalls that the Vatican II documents don't seem to support your thesis; don't they regard music as an essential ingredient, not a luxurious extra?

Reckon though that your thought probably echoes that of many people in the pews, and that's why it's such a thorny problem - if the people don't see it as integral to the liturgy, then they sure ain't gonna pay for it!

[sidvicius]

Essential Ingredient? Well, you can still make bread without yeast. I've been to dozens of masses where not a note was uttered. Does that make them invalid as masses? Also, I've been to as many masses where music consisted of unaccompanied singing - not so much as a tuning fork in sight, led either by someone in the congregation or the priest. No music minister, paid or unpaid.

Provision of (worthy) music within the mass is the luxury to which I refer. Unfortunately, there are churches where they consider it a luxury to have anyone volunteer to prepare and/or lead the music, let alone play an instrument. It's not so much that people won't pay, it's that they can't - there is no money available. If you know it isn't, then don't work like you expect to be paid, because nine times out of ten, you won't.

For merseysider it's still about balance - he has to decide where he draws the voluntary line, up to which he is happy to provide ministry, for no pay. Just to show that I am on his side, I would say that judging by what he has posted in the past, he is extremely generous. His PPC should recognise this, if they want to maintain his services at their current level. But if there is no money, that situation won't change overnight.

[SOP]

PPC? Mmmmmmm

[Merseysider]

At one of our churches the candle boxes alone total £500 a week.
I don't have a great problem about working for nothing. It is, as Mr Viscious says, up to me to decide what I do.
But why am I also having to fundraise to find £750 for the digi-piano in one church and £600 to move the (Allen) organ in the other.
My original complaint was why, when the total spend needed is just £1350 (for two parishes) am I having to sit up so late, so often, writing parts for the various musicians who come along to play for special presents? Often I buy them drinks or small presents as a thank you. V happy to work for nothing – just a tad irritated that it's costing me a lot.

[sidvicius]

Good Questions - sounds like your candle money could be used to fund both these projects in three weeks and save you a lot of bother. Is there some reason why candle money cannot be used for this purpose? Have you suggested it?