Following a different thought line here! Sparked off by Presbyter and Tsume Tsuyu's comments in the Are you indespensible? thread.
There, they posed questions about getting more Catholics and keeping them.
It struck me: there is much done, in many parishes, with Children's Liturgy (of the Word). I have little experience of these, but it set me thinking: How do we measure how effective these are; do they help retain children as they grow up, or would we be better off giving our children a more active role within the "adult" liturgy?
Thoughts?
Children's Liturgy
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Children's Liturgy
Benevenio.
-
pirate
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:24 am
- Parish / Diocese: St Joseph Oakham Rutland
- Location: UK
Children's liturgy
Something else to think about - does Children's Liturgy help some parents to come back to a church they took time out from when they were younger? I've seen loads of parents become more involved in parish life directly through their children's (and subsequently their own) participation in Children's Liturgy of the Word (CLOW). Some have even joined the RCIA programme and been baptised/received into the Church!
But my own feeling is that weekly Children's liturgy isn't necessarily the best arrangement; children are part of the whole Church, after all, and they should be absorbing the rhythm of the whole Sunday liturgy, even if they don't/can't always listen to the Scriptures and take on board even parts of the homily. Fortnightly gives a nice balance, I have found, and is good for the children's liturgy leaders too.
Much more to be said on this one, but here is a very personal note: I have no children of my own, and so the children of the parish were in some sense 'family'; younger brothers and sisters, if you like, and when they all flooded out of the church leaving only the adults, I always felt deprived... with toddlers in the assembly there's always a sense of the unexpected about to happen...
Pirate
But my own feeling is that weekly Children's liturgy isn't necessarily the best arrangement; children are part of the whole Church, after all, and they should be absorbing the rhythm of the whole Sunday liturgy, even if they don't/can't always listen to the Scriptures and take on board even parts of the homily. Fortnightly gives a nice balance, I have found, and is good for the children's liturgy leaders too.
Much more to be said on this one, but here is a very personal note: I have no children of my own, and so the children of the parish were in some sense 'family'; younger brothers and sisters, if you like, and when they all flooded out of the church leaving only the adults, I always felt deprived... with toddlers in the assembly there's always a sense of the unexpected about to happen...
Pirate
-
Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
Children's Liturgy
CLOW was introduced in my parish a couple of years ago and has gone from strength to strength. Families are coming to church each week who I had previously not seen. As it's relatively new, I'm not certain whether it will help us to hold onto those children who are participating now, in years to come but, if their parents are attending regularly and becoming actively involved themselves, perhaps the chances are greater that the young people will stay?
That said, I'm not certain how well CLOW helps with the formation of children's faith. I suppose it depends very much upon how it is done. And I agree with Pirate that it is not necessarily the best arrangement and children need to be "absorbing the rhythm" (what a beautiful description!) of the whole Sunday liturgy. Alternate weeks, or even dropping CLOW once a month in favour of the group being part of the whole assembly sounds like a good idea.
Another problem with CLOW is the question of when children are too old for it. There are children in our parish who have received the Sacraments of Reconciliaton and Communion and continue to attend the CLOW each Sunday. When should they stop?
Thank you, Pirate, for sharing your personal feelings. It's something which hadn't occurred to me as I do have children.
Finally....
Isn't there just?
TT
That said, I'm not certain how well CLOW helps with the formation of children's faith. I suppose it depends very much upon how it is done. And I agree with Pirate that it is not necessarily the best arrangement and children need to be "absorbing the rhythm" (what a beautiful description!) of the whole Sunday liturgy. Alternate weeks, or even dropping CLOW once a month in favour of the group being part of the whole assembly sounds like a good idea.
Another problem with CLOW is the question of when children are too old for it. There are children in our parish who have received the Sacraments of Reconciliaton and Communion and continue to attend the CLOW each Sunday. When should they stop?
Thank you, Pirate, for sharing your personal feelings. It's something which hadn't occurred to me as I do have children.
Finally....
Pirate wrote:...with toddlers in the assembly there's always a sense of the unexpected about to happen...
Isn't there just?
TT
-
gwyn
- Posts: 1148
- Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:42 pm
- Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff
- Location: Abertillery, South Wales UK
The CLOW in our parish was a curious affair. The leaders would take the kids out at the end of the Entrace/gathering song, not returning to the assembly 'til after the hymn at the preparation of the gifts - well into the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Then there used to be this curious practice of holding up a drawing or painting or collage or maybe singing a song (totally unconnected to the readings for the day) to the applause of the assembly. Most strange.
Nowadays they return to join the assembly for the bidding prayers (thankfully without the round of applause).
Nowadays they return to join the assembly for the bidding prayers (thankfully without the round of applause).
-
presbyter
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:21 pm
- Parish / Diocese: youknowalready
- Location: elsewhere
Re: Children's Liturgy
Tsume Tsuyu wrote:
Another problem with CLOW is the question of when children are too old for it. There are children in our parish who have received the Sacraments of Reconciliaton and Communion and continue to attend the CLOW each Sunday. When should they stop?
TT
Directory on Masses with Children is effective until puberty - hence in Masses for Children where they are in a majority, the choice of EP I, II or III for children in accord with their age and understanding. Do your parishes have different CLOW groups running simultaneously - pre-school, infants, juniors? I'd be interested to know what lectionary material is being used and who "preaches".
-
presbyter
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:21 pm
- Parish / Diocese: youknowalready
- Location: elsewhere
Re: Children's Liturgy
Tsume Tsuyu wrote: There are children in our parish who have received the Sacraments of Reconciliaton and Communion
TT
Anyone brave enough to start a thread on ages and stages of Christian initiation then? Should we baptise infants who we will never see at Sunday Mass? Does Pius X's lowering of the age of First Commuion a century ago still seem a good idea today? Shouldn't Confirmation come before First Communion? [The Anglican practice of Confirmation and First Communion in teenage years is simply a continuation of the pre-Reformation Catholic practice of these islands - Synod of Lambeth 1221, if my memory serves me correctly]
And are children still being taught that they MUST go to Confession before going to Communion?
-
presbyter
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:21 pm
- Parish / Diocese: youknowalready
- Location: elsewhere
Re: Children's Liturgy
presbyter wrote:Anyone brave enough to start a thread on ages and stages of Christian initiation then?
Me. I have.
-
Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
Presbyter wrote:Do your parishes have different CLOW groups running simultaneously - pre-school, infants, juniors? I'd be interested to know what lectionary material is being used and who "preaches".
I can only relay what happens in our parish; all ages (about 2 yrs up to 8 or 9 yrs) remain together. I think the reason they are not split (and there is a large enough group, usually) is because of a shortage of people willing to help. Our CLOW is run by a couple who got fed up of having nothing for their children. They do the 'preaching' and they use the 'Complete Children's Liturgy Book' by Katie Thompson, published by Kevin Mayhew. It's not a great resource (in my humble opinion) but this couple do a brilliant job and they were the only ones brave enough to volunteer to take it on.
TT
Kids - how do we involve them?
Catholic Mass always seems so deep and heavy and demanding and not at all inclusive of younger people. It still seems to be stuck in a time where children were 'seen and not heard' (on pain of a good beating when Dad got you home).
CLOW always seems to me to be the lame 'best (least) we can do' - only running - badly - when someone takes it on because no-one else can be bothered - which speaks unhappy volumes for our dedication to the Catholic pathway of life and service to God. We still haven't sorted out those tricky years when they're too old for CLOW but not old enough to drink in pubs either...
A friend of mine invited me to his church - one of the new breed 'no-obvious affiliation' ones - kids charged around unhindered and unhinged while somehow the service for adults continued despite their circulatory mayhem. Initially I was irritated, but as I began to realise that no-one seemed unduly bothered (and their play was being discreetly monitored for safety by selected adults), I quickly began to get into the swing of the service - which was great. 2½ hours flew by. Ever noticed how one hour in some Catholic masses seems to drag?
CLOW always seems to me to be the lame 'best (least) we can do' - only running - badly - when someone takes it on because no-one else can be bothered - which speaks unhappy volumes for our dedication to the Catholic pathway of life and service to God. We still haven't sorted out those tricky years when they're too old for CLOW but not old enough to drink in pubs either...
A friend of mine invited me to his church - one of the new breed 'no-obvious affiliation' ones - kids charged around unhindered and unhinged while somehow the service for adults continued despite their circulatory mayhem. Initially I was irritated, but as I began to realise that no-one seemed unduly bothered (and their play was being discreetly monitored for safety by selected adults), I quickly began to get into the swing of the service - which was great. 2½ hours flew by. Ever noticed how one hour in some Catholic masses seems to drag?
-
Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
Children's Liturgy
I happen to think that there is not much about the Mass that children cannot take in. Younger children like to watch - what the priest and the servers are doing interests them. Older children, if brought up coming to Mass, join in, in the same way as adults. Where it usually falls down is during the sermon which often goes over my head, never mind the younger members of the community.
On balance, I'd prefer to see the children staying in Mass than moving out for CLOW. I know CLOW is popular - and certainly numbers of young families have increased since our parish began CLOW - but I wonder just how much of that it because the parents like to be rid of the children for a while (a) so they can listen and (b) so they are not embarrassed when their children are noisy or disruptive.
It would be good, though, if Priests were able to simplify their sermons to reach the majority. After all, a simple message will be understand by almost everyone, whereas a complicated message will be absorbed by only a few.
Finally, I'm interested in your comment that Mass is always so deep and heavy and demanding, Sid. I love Mass. I love the ritual and, more recently, having read various postings on this forum, I've looked and listened with new eyes and ears and I believe I now put more in, and so get more out of the Mass than I ever have before. Deep, yes. Mass re-presents (thanks, mcb) what happened to Christ. It is demanding too, but being a Christian is demanding. Just how good a Christian are we if we listen to the message on a Sunday, but then conveniently forget it until the following Sunday? We are called to mission and that's a tall order. It would be much easier for me, in the workplace, for instance, to hide my badge of Christianity, but I'm called to display it. If children are part of the parish community at Mass from an early age, they can only be strengthened and nourished by what they see and hear, can't they? And it is the responsibility of the whole Parish community to help them, to nurture them and to enable them to grow.
So, I should like to see children remain part of the parish community for the whole of Mass, but for there to be more structured formation for children, and for young people and adults, outside of Mass.
TT
On balance, I'd prefer to see the children staying in Mass than moving out for CLOW. I know CLOW is popular - and certainly numbers of young families have increased since our parish began CLOW - but I wonder just how much of that it because the parents like to be rid of the children for a while (a) so they can listen and (b) so they are not embarrassed when their children are noisy or disruptive.
It would be good, though, if Priests were able to simplify their sermons to reach the majority. After all, a simple message will be understand by almost everyone, whereas a complicated message will be absorbed by only a few.
Finally, I'm interested in your comment that Mass is always so deep and heavy and demanding, Sid. I love Mass. I love the ritual and, more recently, having read various postings on this forum, I've looked and listened with new eyes and ears and I believe I now put more in, and so get more out of the Mass than I ever have before. Deep, yes. Mass re-presents (thanks, mcb) what happened to Christ. It is demanding too, but being a Christian is demanding. Just how good a Christian are we if we listen to the message on a Sunday, but then conveniently forget it until the following Sunday? We are called to mission and that's a tall order. It would be much easier for me, in the workplace, for instance, to hide my badge of Christianity, but I'm called to display it. If children are part of the parish community at Mass from an early age, they can only be strengthened and nourished by what they see and hear, can't they? And it is the responsibility of the whole Parish community to help them, to nurture them and to enable them to grow.
So, I should like to see children remain part of the parish community for the whole of Mass, but for there to be more structured formation for children, and for young people and adults, outside of Mass.
TT
How to aim the Mass at everyone? I related to Tsume's comments that by looking and listening we get more out of the experience of Mass. I have found that the more I delve into the mystery of the liturgy the more stimulated I am by the experience. 'Going through the motions' without knowing what we are doing seems to be a familiar trait of Catholic worship.
I digress from the subject matter... How are we to judge the right level to pitch the liturgy for children? The challenge isn't just making things 'easy enough' but also making things 'interesting enough' for both children and adults. The tone of voice, pace and choice of words can make so much difference to how intently we listen and how much we take in. It is so easy to just switch off when listening to someone speaking in a monotonous tone of voice or intellectuallising out loud when what we really want is someone to spell things out for us and confirm some of the things that we are confused about - to tie up the loose ends. I suppose I am really talking about sermons here rather than the liturgy as a whole.
I think what I am getting at here is that we tend not to use our brains on this matter - or maybe are not readyto admit that actually the Mass isn't really 'doing it' for us either. How many people will admit that they are bored, uninspired or confused about the liturgy? Especially in front of the children - after all, we are the ones who are meant to have it sussed. So I think we should look firstly towards improving our adult experience of the liturgy and then use what we have learned to help inform our decisions about children's liturgies.
I digress from the subject matter... How are we to judge the right level to pitch the liturgy for children? The challenge isn't just making things 'easy enough' but also making things 'interesting enough' for both children and adults. The tone of voice, pace and choice of words can make so much difference to how intently we listen and how much we take in. It is so easy to just switch off when listening to someone speaking in a monotonous tone of voice or intellectuallising out loud when what we really want is someone to spell things out for us and confirm some of the things that we are confused about - to tie up the loose ends. I suppose I am really talking about sermons here rather than the liturgy as a whole.
I think what I am getting at here is that we tend not to use our brains on this matter - or maybe are not readyto admit that actually the Mass isn't really 'doing it' for us either. How many people will admit that they are bored, uninspired or confused about the liturgy? Especially in front of the children - after all, we are the ones who are meant to have it sussed. So I think we should look firstly towards improving our adult experience of the liturgy and then use what we have learned to help inform our decisions about children's liturgies.