Hymnbooks

[sidvicius]

Seems to have been a little while since this thread was ablaze with interest, but if I may just prod the ashes a bit: you said this would be one hymn, one page, which is cool. I'm wondering if that means you could consider room for aesthetics?

All the church hymnbooks I've looked at recently have been non-descript, when they could be things of graphical artistic beauty to match their musical content (on the whole). Old theological books were works of great labour and artistry. With all our modern technical gadgets, can we not at least make some effort to approach the standard of our ancestors?

(but please, NOT 'religious' clipart.)

[peterc]

"In bread we bring you Lord...... In wine we offer you........" No we don't!!!

I am aware that liturgists tend to disparage this hymn, but as an ordinary layman, I find its sentiments very appropriate. The phrase "the graces we resist" speaks volumes. Personally I wish we followed this hymn to the letter, but as it is, it is one of those that, pace nickgale, needs rewriting to match Roman Rite practice at this part of the Mass so that we can truthfully sing "but SIT united now, one in belief"

[musicus]

Welcome to the forum, peterc.

(I have fixed your "quote" syntax - it is fiddly at first.)

Musicus (moderator)

[oopsorganist]

And can you include "Praise My Soul the King of Heaven" with an arrangement which only needs the two hands please?

[gwyn]

Oopsorganist said:

And can you include "Praise My Soul the King of Heaven" with an arrangement which only needs the two hands please?

If you look in Laudate (# 807), just use the accompaniment for the second verse throughout.

I know what you mean though especially if, like me, you sing along.

Singing the bass part while playing the organ is easy enough, but lately I've been singing tenor - needless to say I have to be a bit inventive.

[organist]

Hi Nick
Good luck with the project. I think New English Hymnal gets it right regarding layout and some excellent choral settings. Have you looked at Hymns for prayer and praise - the monastic book? Some lovely texts there. Pitch is important - some books take everyone too low or too high. And never forget that poetry should look like poetry on the page! Please don't include some of the horrors of the past now in the Catholic hymn book. Go for quality not sentimentality!

[nazard]

Did this project ever finish? What did you call it? Where can I buy a copy?

[johnquinn39]

"In bread we bring you Lord...... In wine we offer you........" No we don't!!!

I am aware that liturgists tend to disparage this hymn, but as an ordinary layman, I find its sentiments very appropriate. The phrase "the graces we resist" speaks volumes. Personally I wish we followed this hymn to the letter, but as it is, it is one of those that, pace nickgale, needs rewriting to match Roman Rite practice at this part of the Mass so that we can truthfully sing "but SIT united now, one in belief"

This 'hymn' is both banal and untrue.

John

[musicus]

Did this project ever finish? What did you call it? Where can I buy a copy?

Yes, do tell! Is the project still in preparation? completed? abandoned? My (parish's) cheque book stands ready.

[johnquinn39]

"In bread we bring you Lord...... In wine we offer you........" No we don't!!!

I am aware that liturgists tend to disparage this hymn, but as an ordinary layman, I find its sentiments very appropriate. The phrase "the graces we resist" speaks volumes. Personally I wish we followed this hymn to the letter, but as it is, it is one of those that, pace nickgale, needs rewriting to match Roman Rite practice at this part of the Mass so that we can truthfully sing "but SIT united now, one in belief"

If we are going to sing an offertory hymn, why not try one from 'By flowing waters' (The Simple Gradual)?

[dmu3tem]

Am I right in surmising that this hymnal will be very big? (i.e. over 300 items) I only ask this because I see from your list that you propose to include Mass, Psalm and other settings.

A couple of years ago the parish where I was working set about replacing their hymnals. We immediately found that enormous hymnals of this type (e.g. Laudate) were very costly when it came to getting 10-12 full copies for the choir. They also proved to be very large, heavy and clumsy to use (with Laudate you have to use two volumes). What I found myself looking for then was something that had hymns only, given that I was confident we could deal with Mass, Psalm and Gospel settings (lots of the latter needed due to the multiplicity of texts) through separate volumes/booklets/sheets dished out to the choir and where necessary on the weekly parish newsletter for the congregation (all covered by a Calamus licence). In other words my specification was for a hymnal with about 250 items of hymns in text only and full organ versions (with chord symbols where appropriate - as with Mission Praise) - something then on the scale of the old Westminster Hymnal. Apart from the very expensive Catholic Hymnal (is this the right title?) produced by the Oratory I could not find anything of this sort in Catholic circles. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong places.


Another vexed aspect concerns accompaniments. The general tendency is to write all purpose accompaniments that can be played either on manuals only organs, or on full organs, or on pianos or electric keyboards. This works well enough with old- fashioned four-part harmony hymns; but it can prove problematical with more modern hymns. Often I have had to sit down and not just make the odd modification, but wholesale rearrangements to make optimum use of the keyboard I was using. I noticed though that in a comparatively recent edition of Hymns Ancient and Modern Revised a piano and an organ setting was provided for the hymn 'Lord, Jesus Christ, You have come to us', which dealt with the distinction between instruments with or without sustaining pedals fairly adequately. I am not sure though whether this sort of thing would be economically viable on a large scale? If so this could affect the choice of hymns skewing it in a backward-looking direction (not necessarily a bad thing, by the way).

I suppose that one's answer to such questions very much depends on the market you are aiming at. The all-purpose hymnal has the advantage of covering the widest possible market, but at the cost of producing something very large and therefore more expensive to buy. A hymnal with only hymns in it has a more limited market; but will cost less to produce and buy. The issue is complicated by the present unpredictability of the market. On paper attacks on the four-hymn sandwich and a switch to Entrance and Communion Antiphons reduce the attractiveness of a hymns only hymnal; yet this might be underestimating the persistence of a hymn singing tradition built up over the last 40 odd years at a local level. Moreover there still appears to be a little uncertainty about the exact texts in parts of the new liturgies that are gradually coming out (see, for example, the remarks on other threads about the Memorial Acclamations). However, this uncertainty may be only surface froth and in reality things really are now 'set in stone'.

[Nick Baty]

I've noticed an increasing number of parishes with one particular hymnal for the choir and another, or none, for the assembly. While, as you say, Laudate, is two heavy volumes if you want full music, this edition mostly only includes choir parts for the four-square strophic hymns. Many other items do not include the choir parts, probably because it would then run to three or four volumnes and they have to be bought as octavo edition.

I really believe that the days of the hymnal, as we've known it for the last 40 years or so, are over. There are now so many sources from which to gather music – often music which some of the bigger publishers are unwilling to include. I haven't seen a hymnbook in our cathedral for many years: the choir still has Praise the Lord and New English Hymnal but the assembly is given a service sheet.

And in our small church, at least since the First Sunday of Advent, we haven't given out books at all on Sundays. We have Laudate – and very good it is too – but this is mostly used for Evening Prayer. Weekday Masses usually only have sung acclamations and these are sung from memory. On Sundays everyone has a service sheet. So much easier: organ plays, pick up the sheet and there's the item in question. I swear the singing has improved.

Yes, we've been spending quite a bit on music which isn't in Laudate for cantors and psalmists but we'd be buying much of this anyway. And, like many parishes, we can't manage four parts anyway so much of our music has to be rearranged. For example, on 27 September we're singing Peter Jones's Coventry Gloria arranged for SAB (I asked permission of the composer back in 2004). Laudate does not include the four-part arrangement so we'd have had to buy the octavos anyway.

I really don't think you can beat service sheets and these days they're quick and simple to produce. I tend to produce five or six weeks in a batch before sending them to the parish secretary for copying. Which reminds me, I've still to do next Sunday's so I'd better finish decorating and get on with it.

[Psalm Project]

Hymnbooks a thing of the past? What a sweeping statement.
My church is large (1,100 capacity) Average attendance 500-600 at the main masses. If I had to print resource sheets every week, that's a lot of printing and subsequent recycle waste.
Not every church has a person capable of regularly producing service sheets - That requires a LOT of work, dedication and effort and requires a 'network' of people (Yourself, a parish secretary - resources to print on a regular basis etc etc.). In a small environment, it may be more appropriate - I don't know.
We use Laudate (Pew edition) all the time and could not survive without it. Great resource. Chorally, I still have to purchase Octavos - especially for the North American stuff - however, that is not a problem. Also, having to pay for them commands respect for the copies! I also like this because it gives the original composer a stipend (being a composer myself, this is usually a small but welcome little encouragement to sustain my work). We has only two sets of the full edition of Laudate. I would not buy this for the choir of over 30 members. I'm not sure if the two volume edition was ever intended for that purpose? Correct me if I am wrong. They are great as organ console copies - Open flat binding in B5 format! Nice!

[Nick Baty]

Hymnbooks a thing of the past? What a sweeping statement.

Which is why I’m glad I didn’t make it when I said, “I really believe that the days of the hymnal, as we've known it for the last 40 years or so, are over.”

Laudate, itself, is something quite new and different from anything we’ve had before. But, excellent as it is, can you survive on this and nothing else? We certainly can’t so service sheets are the only option.

Average attendance 500-600 at the main masses... That requires a LOT of work, dedication and effort and requires a 'network' of people

We’ve had this debate before and it simply isn’t true. I reckon it’s takes me no more than 15 minutes to prepare our weekly service sheet, less time if I’m working in a batch – as I did for the recent John 6 weeks – longer if I have to create the dots for a newer item. (In fact I timed this the last time such a question was asked and working from existing materials, with the exception of the psalm response which I had prepared beforehand it took 6mins 28sec.)

I then email a pdf to our parish secretary who then prints it straight from her machine – thereafter it doesn’t matter if she’s producing 100 or 1000 because she just leaves it on a low light and goes about her many other tasks.

Another advantage is the greater flexibility in choosing verses. This year we sang Alleluia! Sing to Jesus on Ascension Day with the verse "though the cloud from sight received him..." and we sang it again at Corpus Christi with the verse "Alleluia! Bread of angels..."

it gives the original composer a stipend

Composers also get a cut from service sheets, provided you’ve bought your Calamus licence. In fact, I’d say they get more: we sing far more Bernadette Farrell, for example, than is included in Laudate so Bernadette benefits from our service sheets. And then there's all the others: Tamblyn, Barr, Huijbers, Lowenthal etc. Couldn't include any of them without a service sheet.

I'm not knocking Laudate – I think it's superb – and using a collection is fine but it is very limiting.

[Peter]

Composers also get a cut from service sheets, provided you’ve bought your Calamus licence.

... and provided you submit the quarterly reports! I've heard of parishes that have bought the licence "to keep them legal when making copies" but then find it too much work to complete the log of what they've used and how often - which rather defeats the object of the exercise as that is the way Calamus know which authors and composers to reward for the use of their work. In fact, reporting need not be an onerous job: I use a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet, which not only maintains the records but generates the reports at the end of the quarter. It takes a bit of work to set up but once it is up and running it's very quick and easy to use.