Cantors and animators

[NorthernTenor]

ps sorry for the excessive posting. I'm stuck at home with that fashionable porcine virus. Just blame any long-windedness on a raised temperature.

[PaulW]

The people's parts are based on simple, recurring patterns, have a comfortable tonal range, and lack difficult rhythms.

Not inclined to agree with you - look at the stuff on ICEL's site: it has no indication of rhythm other than bar lines, but leaves it up to the individuals to know what the quarter, half and full bars signify; more than once, the barlines come in the middle of where we have become accustomed with the existing texts, which is confusing. Even though they use round dots and not square ones (and, let's face it, the square dots gave us a lot more information than these new-fangled round ones, as far as chant is concerned), it is hard to read and interpret and much easier to sing it by ear.

And this then will give us a problem when it is introduced into the parish: many people in the pews will not read the dots, even if they are given them, and we will have a mish-mash of the old, the old but half-remembered and the new. Better surely for someone to teach them the new, to (re)train their ears to the feel of the chant. To be realistic, when will this take place? Not is sessions during the week, for the faithful will not come; it will have to take place where the people actually are, when they are gathered together - for example on a Sunday morning, just before Mass... Whether chant or any other style, when there is something new, there needs to be teaching,intrusive as that can be.

When it's not necessary, don't do it.

Yes, I quite agree. I suspect that something to that effect was on the end of Bernadette's creed, but memory doesn't serve me that well!

ps sorry for the excessive posting. I'm stuck at home with that fashionable porcine virus. Just blame any long-windedness on a raised temperature.

Glad we can keep you amused, though perhaps this forum, at times, doesn't do much to lower your temperature...
Now, what's the Latin for your ailment?

[NorthernTenor]

Glad we can keep you amused, though perhaps this forum, at times, doesn't do much to lower your temperature...
Now, what's the Latin for your ailment?

Morbus porcinus? Perhaps our ursine guide will advise?

As to the other matter: I believe quite strongly that conversation accross boundaries is good and necessary, and when they intersect as these do the conversation can be enlightening, too.

[SOP]

I like to sing at Mass, one of the reasons I am in a choir, but I like to sing when at another church and there is music available. I appreciate someone taking us through the psalm and maybe a difficult new piece to that congregation, it makes me feel welcome that I can join in. There is nothing more frustrating to be part of a congregation that sings and I can't join in. Hymns are fine because you know most of them by the end of the 2nd verse and you can join in with the third verse onwards but the Mass parts - highlights the fact that I am a stranger.

Before you jump in and say that if we were all singing plainchant then I would know it - erm, no I don't know all plainchant Masses. I sometimes go back to my old parish church which has undergone many changes since it was a real parish and they sing plainchant Masses that I don't know. The organist there blasts out when the people are supposed to sing effectively drowning them out completely. That is not very friendly either.

In my experience, if a cantor/animator tries to take us through things at the beginning of Mass I like to imagine I am giving them encouragement by looking at them and repeating as instructed.

[Nick Baty]

And with that big smile and that red dress the cantor would notice you and would smile back!

[Southern Comfort]

Many, many years ago, I went for some weeks to a course for Cantors led by Bernadette Farrell and Paul Inwood. Bernadette drummed into us what she referred to as the Cantor's Creed:

When a word will do, don't use a sentence;
When a gesture will do, don't use a word;
When a look will do, don't use a gesture.

Incomplete, alas. It's a translation of a Creed for Cantors by Fr David Julien, one of the pioneers of French cantoring, and was presented by Paul Inwood, as PaulW mentions. The full text runs as follows:

When a sentence will do, don't make a speech.
When a word will do, don't use a sentence.
When a gesture will do, don't say a word.
When a look will do, don't make a gesture.

It can be found, among other places, in Lucien Deiss's Spirit and Song of the New Liturgy in its various different editions (which have different titles).

[Hare]

The organist there blasts out when the people are supposed to sing effectively drowning them out completely. That is not very friendly either.

But posibly better than not giving enough support or making it clear that people should be singing

[Nick Baty]

But posibly better than not giving enough support or making it clear that people should be singing

Huge query over this one!

[NorthernTenor]

I believe quite strongly that conversation accross boundaries is good and necessary, and when they intersect as these do the conversation can be enlightening, too.

Sadly, not all think so.

[Hare]

But posibly better than not giving enough support or making it clear that people should be singing

Huge query over this one!

Absolutely! The ideal is to get it exactly right - not always easy for lots of reasons, even with many years' experience under one's belt.

[SOP]

But posibly better than not giving enough support or making it clear that people should be singing

Huge query over this one!

Absolutely! The ideal is to get it exactly right - not always easy for lots of reasons, even with many years' experience under one's belt.

I think it is patronising when the organist blasts away.

[Hare]

No disrespect SOP, but are you an organist?

[musicus]

Well, I am an organist, and I know two churches in my neck of the woods that get it wrong. At the one, the organist plays too quietly (possibly so that s/he can hear the congregation and follow their lead); at the other, the organist consistently plays too loudly (possibly so that s/he cannot hear the congregation at all). In both cases, the end result is poor and unenthusiastic congregational singing. However, in the first instance, a strong singer in the pews (animateur? ) can hold things together.

In my own church, of course, I always strive for the Goldilocks option - neither too quiet nor too loud, but just right. (Goldilocks and I are good friends now, after that inauspicious initial meeting.)

[SOP]

No disrespect SOP, but are you an organist?

I have ears and know when something is too loud. Anyone who starts a sentance with "no disrepect" is being disrepectful and patronising.

[Hare]

No disrespect SOP, but are you an organist?

I have ears and know when something is too loud. Anyone who starts a sentance with "no disrepect" is being disrepectful and patronising.

I know, but what else can I say?

I think you are tarring all organists with the same brush here.

Can I cite one example. At our early mass today, the church was 1/3 full. We finished with "Cwm Rhondda" and I had to "blast" louder than I did in other accompaniments, in to keep everyone together.

In my parish, we do not have a "music group". I know very little about them, but I respect what they do, and those who organize them. I have no knowledge with which to back up any criticisms, so I don't make any.