negotiations and hymns choices.....

[oopsorganist]

This is off topic.. send for the Moderator(s).

I have misgivings about the whole, participation for chidlren is doing the readings, which our primary school and others seem to think is the way to go. It puts a lot of pressure on children, sometimes very little children and is a bit annoying if you then struggle to hear them. Is it cute? No. It is awkward on all occasions when I have seen it done. (Which is quite a few).
Bonkersly and inspite of all above discussions around the issues (trying to stay on topic Modoc) I know have pressure from some quarters to try somehow to round up all the Confirmees and engage them in wanting to help with the singing. There can be no surer sign of a lack of general organisation in a parish for anyone to suggest this is the next step for young people's energies. (I would not mind if they volunteered). I quite often get accused of having "let them get away"!

And loudly off topic, smacked hand, at the end of Sunday Mass the catechists, all four of them, were given flowers! For turning up for 14 sessions! It just made me laugh.
Anway I don't feel like such a bad fairy for questioning the relapse into favourite hymn singing. We did sing the Alleluia (Seek ye first) and all other important bits. And well too. People just don't know that if they slid into a weekly favourite hymn singing session interspersed with Mass bits, they would get tired and stop coming. I know if I put on a hymn singing hour with all yer favourites, no one would come. I am learning to smile and do what needs to be done, but cor dear, it's so hard pleasing everyone

[oopsorganist]

That should say NOW have pressure, not know have pressure.

[docmattc]

I have misgivings about the whole, participation for chidlren is doing the readings, which our primary school and others seem to think is the way to go.

The whole question of how one defines participation is certainly a can of worms which is to be opened on another thread (if at all) please, but I share your misgivings oops. Participation certainly doesn't equate solely with 'doing things' especially if that also means 'doing things badly'.

[Peter]

Much of what you've listed there Oops is not covered by Calamus so I hope that whoever has prepared the sheet is merely refering to a number in a hymnbook.

... or that your church has a Church Copyright Licence (CCL) from Christian Copyright Licensing Europe (CCLE), which covers quite a lot (I haven't checked them all) of the rest.

What alarms me most about Oops' list is that from context I would assume that "Gifts of Bread and Wine" was used at the Offertory, a frequent mistake made by people who look no further than the title. If you read the text, it goes on to say "gifts we'[ha]ve offered, ..., sanctified, blest and broken ...", which makes it clearly inappropriate before the Agnus Dei. Laudate, which groups hymns by topics, rightly puts it in the "Communion Thanksgiving" section; with hymnbooks that simply list hymns alphabetically, without reference to topics, the distinction is not so clear, though the Index of Uses in the 1984 Hymns Old and New regrettably puts this hymn under "Offertory".

The rest of Oops' list is a mixture of "usual suspects" that I have often encountered in similar circumstances plus a lot I (mercifully) haven't. Some are unexceptionable if unimaginative, included presumably because "the children know them" - though if the adults in the congregation don't that's not much help! Others are pretty dire - Shine Jesus Shine is almost worthy of inclusion in the thread Words we don't quite get. Maybe the answer is to introduce into schools hymns with more thoughtful words as well as tunes that appeal to young people - for example, Marty Haugen's "Send down the fire" (included in Cantate and covered by Calamus) has an appropriate text for Confirmation and a catchy tune, which is good fun to sing once you've got the 3/4-vs-6/8 rhythm into your system. When I introduced it to our singing group I said "Think of America from West Side Story!"

Oops' more recent posting is also deserving of further discussion but at Doc' suggestion I've started a new thread for it.

[John Ainslie]

Its interesting that we are still, fundamentally, dealing with the mentality of 'low mass with hymns'. 'Sing the Mass' was published in 1975 and here we are, 34 years later, dealing with congregations that have not, in the main, had the catechesis/formation to move on from there. That is no real surprise - when I was a child, High Mass was seen less than once a year, Missa Cantata was only attended by a small proportion of catholics and low Mass only occasionally had hymns.

You are quite right, keitha. What happened in the 60s was that interim permission was given to sing anything at Mass that was not the official liturgical texts: for the Ordinary of the Mass, settings had to be approved by the then National Music Commission; for the Proper, the word was "wait until the ICEL translation comes out", which it didn't until 1973. The Simple Gradual, edited by yours truly, appeared in 1969 in an attempt to present something liturgically appropriate and approved, but, like Sing the Mass, never took off - the hymn had already become the only solution to the musical rendering of the Proper in the vernacular.

Cardinal Heenan wrote in 1966 "Soon we shall have vernacular versions of the Mass in new musical settings but we shall not have completely satisfactory words and music for the Mass until after a long period of experiment. Meanwhile the English tradition of hymn-singing will be preserved by singing at Mass..." Note 'singing at Mass'! The long period of experiment? 43 years and counting?

I have noted in another thread how Prof László Dobszay sees hymns as accessories to the liturgy, not part of it - and that music itself is seen by too many as no more than an optional extra, icing on the cake. If music is ever to be fully integrated into the Mass, the liturgical texts themselves need to be sung, the most important first - and that means by priest as well as people. And it needs catechesis to explain why.

How to overcome the perception that the most interesting and therefore worthwhile music is that which varies from Sunday to Sunday, which for most choirs and congregations means primarily, even exclusively, the hymns? I understand that there is a project for the production of Professor Dobszay's 'Graduale Parvum' in English - OK, that's one potential solution. For an imaginative and well-thought-out but traditionally-based attempt at a Proper, fully integrated with the Lectionary and available now, see, study and use Psallite, by the Collegeville Composers Group.

[Mithras]

Well it's a long time since I have been invited to contribute to a Confirmation Mass, despite my having been organist and choirmaster here for 20 years (and, incidentally, a member of the diocesan music team), and I understand that the music is chosen by the confirmandi, which I take to mean that it is chosen by the catechists who seem to imagine that the Holy Spirit doesn't like anythinng written before 1970, anything that scans or anything that actually makes theological or musical sense. No wonder they call confirmation the sacrament of farewell....I wouldn't be persuaded back to a diet of Walk in the Light &c if I can get Veni Sancte Spiritus elsewhere.

[Nick Baty]

the catechists who seem to imagine that the Holy Spirit doesn't like anythinng written before 1970

and anything written after 1980!

[docmattc]

Welcome on board Mithras.

[Mithras]

Thanks docmattc - Sheffield is where I was born so I'll raise a glass to you later!

M

[Reginald]

Well it's a long time since I have been invited to contribute to a Confirmation Mass, despite my having been organist and choirmaster here for 20 years (and, incidentally, a member of the diocesan music team), and I understand that the music is chosen by the confirmandi, which I take to mean that it is chosen by the catechists who seem to imagine that the Holy Spirit doesn't like anythinng written before 1970, anything that scans or anything that actually makes theological or musical sense. No wonder they call confirmation the sacrament of farewell....I wouldn't be persuaded back to a diet of Walk in the Light &c if I can get Veni Sancte Spiritus elsewhere.

Last year our confirmands - 10 of the 14 being in a certain RE teacher's class specifically requested chant, both plain and Taize, and resisted all attempts at getting them to sing the Shiney Jesus Song (the catechist specifically suggested that they should do it as the young people would like it)! This year's group had fewer of my students and went in a less trad direction, but nonetheless liturgically 'correct'. I've said it elsewhere on the Forum, but when we get the schools 'right' the rest will follow.

[Nick Baty]

I've said it elsewhere on the Forum, but when we get the schools 'right' the rest will follow.

I agree with you – in theory. But I remember researching a few facts and figures for something I was writing and I was reliably informed that 92 per cent of Catholic pupils, have no further contact with the Church once they've finished school. (I'm not sure where they get these figures but looking around our own parish I'd say it makes sense.) More recently I read that the figure was higher – if I find it again I'll post the link on here.

So getting the schools 'right' could be important. However, we must get it right in the parish too so those youngsters who come along are not put off by what we do. In fact, it's occurred to me while typing this that quite a large number of our young parishoners, those who show up regularly and take part in various ways, do not attend Catholic schools. Now, there's a thought!

Ooh – and a quick PS! Our youngsters prepare for Confirmation in the parish, rather than in the school. Therefore, there isn't an opportunity for them to make and requests about music. And if there were, they haven't had any experience of singing Shiney Jesus or Crappy Gloria – certainly not in the parish.

[Reginald]

Ooh – and a quick PS! Our youngsters prepare for Confirmation in the parish, rather than in the school. Therefore, there isn't an opportunity for them to make and requests about music. And if there were, they haven't had any experience of singing Shiney Jesus or Crappy Gloria – certainly not in the parish.

Ours too prepare in the parish rather than the school. What astonished me in the first instance was that they'd gone in to bat against that song without me there to hold their metaphorical hands as t'were. The first I knew about the whole thing was when they bounced up to me one morning, delighted with their selections - it was the first time that I wondered if I ought to have been a Jesuit!

I know that nobody will be expecting this - but I agree with you entirely that, sometimes - maybe even often, when the school gets it right the parish isn't ready to pick up the baton. I won't name names, but there are parishes hereabouts where the only music is a selection of four hymns from the first flush of post-Vat II music - and one or two where you get four hymns that wouldn't have been out of place at Mass in the '30s.

As for Shiney Jesus and the crappy Gloria - I inherited a situation in school where they'd done only four hymns for as long as anyone could remember. Weaned them off that, introduced Mass parts, but still can't shake the Shiney Song and it's cousin Swing it in the Valleys out of their system. We're finishing Mass this term with "Brilla Jesus" to keep them happy - only the chorus in Spanish, but next year starts with nothing - except the chant - being any older than Shiney (which was new fresh and exciting when I was at school). Ironically it's not the kids who complain when we don't have 'Shiney' - but some of the staff...and some of them are difficult to ignore if you follow me!

[mcb]

I won't name names, but there are parishes hereabouts where the only music is a selection of four hymns from the first flush of post-Vat II music.

It's all too familiar, and it gives a good picture of how big the task in front of us is. The parish I live in fits your description, Reginald. I was there last Sunday, the choir I'm normally involved with elsewhere having been awarded a weekend off. They had four hymns (three verses of Be thou my vision, two verses of Here I am Lord, three verses of God's Spirit is in my heart, and How great is our God). Virtually everything else was recited, Gloria, Psalm, Sanctus and all. They sang a verse of Peace, perfect peace at the sign of peace and then recited the Agnus Dei. The only glimmer of light was the Gospel Acclamation, which was sung to the Easter Vigil chant. It was depressing, above all considering that this was the main Sunday Mass in the largest and probably the most prosperous parish of the diocese, the parish priest a very senior member of the diocesan clergy. I expect the people there wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong: that, after all, is how they've always done it, where 'always' means 'for at least the last twenty years'.

How do we begin to change that?

[JW]

MCB wrote: I expect the people there wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong: that, after all, is how they've always done it, where 'always' means 'for at least the last twenty years'.

How do we begin to change that?

MCB, I reckon that we need more appropriate liturgical formation in the seminaries, bishops to insist upon appropriate music for Mass and to insist that their priests meet with musicians to plan music for Masses (getting on topic - why do we have to plan the music and deal with criticism of what is sung? The musician is there to advise and play/sing, not to run the liturgy). It would also be good if bishops could insist that priests sing where it is appropriate to do so (and set aside time to learn stuff)- I came across a fairly recently ordained priest who sang well but refused to sing the Missal's Concluding Doxology to the Eucharist Prayer. We are just seen as weirdos who want to show off. All I'm suggesting here was fairly standard practice pre V2 and I don't think the Council Fathers intended that this should change.

[SOP]

I sometimes wonder how much microphones have put off some of the priests. Just a thought but there did not seem to be microphones all over the church when I was growing up but can't remember if there were any sound problems. I do remember some priests couldn't sing but had to but somehow it didn't seem to be a big thing. If anything you sympathised with them. The choir I was in would have to decide if we could sing a 7 fold Amen to the note we would get or if it would have to be the plain Amen.

Plus these days there is always some smart alec who feels they have to ask "who said you could sing?" ha ha ha. It must be quite daunting for a young priest to get up there and sing and the longer he gets away with not having to sing, the more it would be a habit.